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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 10:36 am 
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Sounds to me like there should be two ban lists. One inclusive; one exclusive.

But, maybe the French already took care of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 10:40 am 
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That has been suggested frequently, but I doubt that there will ever be two official ban lists. There are definitely benefits, but effectively having two different formats under the same banner would fracture non-playgroup commander even further. As you said, the French 1v1 ban list that KevinD curates does a good job of catering to the competitive side of commander, so there are resources out there for fans of that type of play.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 11:23 am 
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papa_funk wrote:
EDH is designed as a primarily social format. That pretty much translates into built for groups of friends, and that's our focus. While it's great that the format has caught fire and lots of people enjoy playing it as they like, we can't be all things to all people, and aren't interested in standardizing (which would have to standardize to a much more competitive format than we're interested in).

I'm not calling for the RC to change anything here, nor am I strictly opposed to a small group house ruling whatever they want. All I'm saying is that when you play with a diverse group, or with several different groups, it helps if the rules are consistent. Going by the rules put forth on this very page is in fact "standardizing" the format already - if everyone follows them. You, the RC, do not need to embrace a more competitive format in order for that to happen. Also, my point still holds - if I have 40 friends, getting everyone to agree to something is hard without hurting people's feelings (which you would rather not do to your friends), so having a go-to uniform set of rules that you can point to is invaluable.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 11:56 am 
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What Sid the Chicken says resonates with me as well. I move around a lot, and making an EDH deck takes a lot of work.

This next part will probably sound a little harsh. I also feel that there is a very good chance it does not need to be said, but -regardless- I do feel the need to say it.

I hope that the RC realizes that they have the responsibility of standardizing the format they created, and that -while it might have been just for a bunch of guys drinking beers in a basement once- it's quickly becoming something else for many. This might not have been what they intended -or wanted- when they made this format, but it is what is happening. Around the world stores are running multiplier Commander tournaments for money, and when they start one they look to the RC for a standardized set of rules. While it might "suck" to have to make rules with that in mind, I think it would be better for the format if they did. Those tournaments are just as important to getting people interested in the format (and magic in general) as a kitchen counter. If such a tournament flops because of unbalanced [O]ffical rules, it's not just bad for the store; it's bad for the game.

Additionally, it is the casual groups that are more likely to be open to the idea of house rules, and the competitive groups that are less willing to make such allowances. Personally, I would rather see Gifts, Hulk, and Tooth and Nail on the ban list and allow play groups to make house rules unbanning them then I would the other way around. Just like what is done for Snow Mercy and the like right now.

The RC needs to make rules based on what IS happening with the format they created, not based on what they WISH was happening.

If I crossed a line in making this post I apologize. I realize it is not my place to tell others how to do their job, and I acknowledge that my opinion is just that. But -at they say- I wanted to get it out there.
Also it might be a "TL;DR" ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 12:34 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Commander is not (and hopefully never will be) a sanctioned tournament format. If people are running tournaments with big prizes based on formats that aren't sanctioned, then they are the ones who are making the mistakes.

It isn't the RC's job to be the unsanctioned tournament police.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 1:58 pm 
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crokaycete wrote:
If people are running tournaments with big prizes based on formats that aren't sanctioned, then they are the ones who are making the mistakes.
Poor naive Wizards of the Coast then:

"But we will also be starting our Grand Prix Side Event Champion events at noon as well. You can play nothing but Magic: The Gathering Commander all weekend and still be the Side Event Champion, taking home a huge prize!"
crokaycete wrote:
It isn't the RC's job to be the unsanctioned tournament police.
Well, I'm just going to have to go ahead and strongly disagree with this statement and leave it at that.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 2:41 pm 
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5ColorControl wrote:
What Sid the Chicken says resonates with me as well. I move around a lot, and making an EDH deck takes a lot of work.

This next part will probably sound a little harsh. I also feel that there is a very good chance it does not need to be said, but -regardless- I do feel the need to say it.

I hope that the RC realizes that they have the responsibility of standardizing the format they created, and that -while it might have been just for a bunch of guys drinking beers in a basement once- it's quickly becoming something else for many. This might not have been what they intended -or wanted- when they made this format, but it is what is happening. Around the world stores are running multiplier Commander tournaments for money, and when they start one they look to the RC for a standardized set of rules. While it might "suck" to have to make rules with that in mind, I think it would be better for the format if they did. Those tournaments are just as important to getting people interested in the format (and magic in general) as a kitchen counter. If such a tournament flops because of unbalanced [O]ffical rules, it's not just bad for the store; it's bad for the game.

Additionally, it is the casual groups that are more likely to be open to the idea of house rules, and the competitive groups that are less willing to make such allowances. Personally, I would rather see Gifts, Hulk, and Tooth and Nail on the ban list and allow play groups to make house rules unbanning them then I would the other way around. Just like what is done for Snow Mercy and the like right now.

The RC needs to make rules based on what IS happening with the format they created, not based on what they WISH was happening.

If I crossed a line in making this post I apologize. I realize it is not my place to tell others how to do their job, and I acknowledge that my opinion is just that. But -at they say- I wanted to get it out there.
Also it might be a "TL;DR" ;)


This sense of entitlement is almost the number 1 thing that ticks me off in the forums.

While I can't speak for the RC, I feel a constant need to remind people that what they do is effectively volunteer work, providing and managing what amounts to a free service to you, the player.

The idea that they have some higher responsibility to a format they created is absurd. It doesn't matter how much EDH/Commander grows or who it appeals to either.

These are people with full time jobs, hobbies, family, wives, school and everything else in between. The amount of time they want to devote to a free service is entirely up to them, no one else. Slapping down what amounts to an opinionated ultimatum is IMO (and as you already surmised yourself) disrespectful.

For many concerned, the format functions completely adequate as is. Rules such as the one being discussed are the way they are for the exact reasons highlighted by this point, it's low maintenance and relatively intuitive (arguments aside).

The open rules are specifically promoted so that you, the player, can do the work the RC doesn't want to do, which is make the format the most it can be for your playgroup.

Effectively speaking, EDH/Commander is not a business, nor are we a group of stakeholders who should be running around making demands.

I'd say, if you wanted this stance, to simply put your money where your mouth is and pay the people as you do Wizards of the Coast and any other company to manage your expectations for a product.

But this too is entirely wrapped up in the point itself. I don't think the RC want to be paid, nor speculatively do I think they want Commander as a full time job. They are us, we are them. They want to get together on a Saturday and play a fun friendly format, and they want to get on with their lives afterwards and it's important everyone understands that. They have shared something they consider fun with us, and have happily and freely maintained it for everyone's betterment, including themselves. The choice to take that further is entirely up to them and something I do not consider necessary at all.

IMO of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 3:22 pm 
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I think you might have a severe misunderstanding with my post. I am not asking for a larger time allotment.

But -most importantly- I am certainly not questioning anyone's commitment to the format.

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Last edited by 5ColorControl on 2012-Mar-02 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 3:39 pm 
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5ColorControl wrote:
I think you might have a severe misunderstanding with my post. I am not asking for a larger time allotment.

But -most importantly- I am certainly not questioning anyone's commitment t
o the format.


Then I think you don't fully understand the implications around 'standardizing a format' and what that might entail.

Specifically see my points about managing player expectations.

The minute you ask for more standardization, the minute you have to ask "standardization for who's perspective?"

Yours, mine, theirs?

It's a significantly deeper hole then you think.

As I said before, the format is open the way it is because the RC have already recognized that trying to maintain a standardization for a large group of counter opinionated people is hard and most importantly time consuming. Especially if you want to do the job right.

Asking for standardization and then (intentionally or not) passing it off as not asking for more time or commitment is flat out flawed logic.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 4:52 pm 

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Quote:
It's a significantly deeper whole then you think.

As I said before, the format is open the way it is because the RC have already recognized that trying to maintain a standardization for a large group of counter opinionated people is hard and most importantly time consuming. Especially if you want to do the job right.


It almost seems silly to ditto what everyone in this thread says, but this point is the most sophisticated I've read. I understand a desire for standardization, making things universal across the board. Unfortunately, even in a world of dragons, monsters, and wizards, that can't happen.

This is analogous to trying to standardize a language. The RC have developed the basis for a language, and it's up to us to work within the bounds of the language. That doesn't mean we can't use slang, though. In this (very much too high-minded) analogy, all house rules would be variations in the same language. It's like someone moving from Texas to Great Britain. There may be a slang difference, but both are speaking English and as a result, can understand each other. The best way for this to happen is communication and dialogue. I know if someone moves around it can be hard, but it doesn't hurt to use what little "English" you have in common to work with.

I recognize this is a stretch, and I'm sure someone's going to pick this apart, part of the reason I dislike disagreements on this sort of thing. It's not the being wrong I dislike, it's the fact that many of these arguments tend to be lost or won based on the use of rhetorical strategies employed, and soundness of grammar and spelling. More often than not, arguments are not won, just beaten into the ground until there's literally no ground left to cover. Every period has been analyzed. It's part of the reason it's so important to not apply a prescriptivist rationale to something as broad as a "Social Constract" and "Recommended Rules." It ultimately comes down to the huge variety of people on this green earth.

People will always have a difference of opinion, but that's kinda the point, isn't it? Being different is great, it's wonderful, and sometimes when it hits you, it floors you. We are all different. I think what the RC is trying to foster is NOT a standardized format where people construct decks in the absolute confines of the rules, but that SAME format they played, with a couple dudes or chicks grabbing some beers and sitting down and having fun based on this format everyone enjoys. It regulates itself based on the social aspect, and taking power from that, I feel, is taking away the format.

Keep in mind, this seems odd coming from me based on my history and present tendency to build degenerate decks, but the people I play with regularly play some very untuned decks that STILL can beat their way out of a winter orb lock or recover from an armageddon, and not get upset while doing so. It's a game, and a really fun one. Fun is fun, and we can discuss things until we're blue in the face, but really, isn't it better to just get together, let people know what you're looking for, and play?


TL;DR Instead of looking through for the flaws in a painting, enjoy it for what it is. Too much criticism, no matter what kind, makes any good person sour.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 6:24 pm 
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You can expect some wording changes to the rules in the near future, moving things away from "suggested" toward "official." The dogma of EDH will always be "here's a centralized, formalized rules set" (so that everyone knows what to expect when they show up at events and whatnot), but "at home, do what you want."

That said, the direction of the RC and the Banned List will still remain "what's best for the format and its fans" and not "what makes better competitive tournaments."

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 7:16 pm 
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Sheldon wrote:
You can expect some wording changes to the rules in the near future, moving things away from "suggested" toward "official." The dogma of EDH will always be "here's a centralized, formalized rules set" (so that everyone knows what to expect when they show up at events and whatnot), but "at home, do what you want."

That said, the direction of the RC and the Banned List will still remain "what's best for the format and its fans" and not "what makes better competitive tournaments."


Not to push my own agenda...

... but I hope people recognize this as a superficial change and not anything major (no offense Sheldon in the sense that the above makes perfect sense, it's just not a major change).

As demonstrated repeatedly, most people clamoring for clearer/stricter/standardized rules already take 'suggested' as 'official' anyway and struggle (by choice or not) with the idea of deviating from it.

Anyone deviating from the rules isn't suddenly going to stop either because it's official over suggested and I don't think those deviating from the rules were entering pickups and expecting things to be the same way they played (at least I hope not? How could they, unless trolling?).

I've personally never entered a pick up game of EDH that didn't play by the 'suggested/official' rules. If they did deviate, they explained, and I adapted.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 10:13 pm 
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Pysces -if I might be so bold- and because we are stating our opinion,

You seem to be saying that the rules committee is not only unnecessary, but not -or should not be- committed to the format. If I might be frank, that's silly.

While I know my ideas probably appear radical, and that the rules committee are probably shacking their heads about it, I have only the utmost respect for what they do. It clearly should be standardized, and it's clearly from their preservative that it needs to be done. But it does need to be done, and they are doing it.

The idea that they need to dedicate more time to it is simply untrue. As I said, I am just stating my opinion of what I think is an important part of the format; things like side events and the like. I fully acknowledge that I am just a random voice on the internet and don't truly expect to be taking seriously, but I do still feel the need to use that random voice because I still think it's important.

I am truly sorry you do not.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 11:15 pm 
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5ColorControl wrote:
Pysces -if I might be so bold- and because we are stating our opinion,

You seem to be saying that the rules committee is not only unnecessary, but not -or should not be- committed to the format. If I might be frank, that's silly.


Good grief.

I'm not even sure I want to address this.

Of course the RC is necessary, the format is not perfect, but it is relatively stable. New sets and cards change things, bannings and unbannings are reviewed etc. etc.

An implication by either of us as to their commitment to the format is asinine. We both know they do a standout job, you just think they can do more, and I think they do enough and don't feel as if they need cater to a mass of people seeking direction solely because they can't understand it is already there in ample quantity.

Quote:
While I know my ideas probably appear radical, and that the rules committee are probably shacking their heads about it, I have only the utmost respect for what they do. It clearly should be standardized, and it's clearly from their preservative that it needs to be done. But it does need to be done, and they are doing it.


Doing what? Changing suggested rules which are already religiously followed by any of those that care about 'official rules'?

It's a do nothing. It's transparent, meaningless, whatever. It is a name change solely aimed at pleasing a group of people who can't take anything but 'official' as the bottom line. That is not standardization by my definition, may be it is to you.

Can you do me a favour and define what you want to make the format 'standardized'?

As far as I'm concerned, the format is standardized.

Start with the basic rules of the format, adjust to taste, serve with fava beans and a a nice chianti.

I (IMO) don't see anything to standardize sorry.

I want to run an event? Start with standard rules, define what sort of play I wish to encourage, adjust rules accordingly, go. It's not rocket science.

Pick up play group? Assume standard rules, discuss with fellow human beings on any variations and then enjoy? Game doesn't turn out as expected? Talk with fellow human beings, move on, or adjust?

It's about as straight forward to me as tying my shoes, so apologies if by my own opinion I feel unsympathetic to the idea of standardizing what is already standard.

Quote:
The idea that they need to dedicate more time to it is simply untrue. As I said, I am just stating my opinion of what I think is an important part of the format; things like side events and the like. I fully acknowledge that I am just a random voice on the internet and don't truly expect to be taking seriously, but I do still feel the need to use that random voice because I still think it's important.


Use your voice however you want, I'll use my as I please too thank you very much.

I have my own opinions, however I happy not to express them because I abide by the fact that in a format where I can change the rules as I please, I am personally happy to work with my playgroup and make adjustments.

I don't need to convince you guys Brothers Yamazaki is okay to use as a general, I need to convince the people I play with in real life, by having real discussions, with real people. Nor do I walk into a pick up or event and automatically assume I can use Brothers, and that everyone will be okay with that because standard expectations have already been provided to me.

I understand this is a) difficult to some, and b) hard to do online, but I don't think standardization as I understand from those that want more, is the answer, at all. Not if it's done right, and not the capacity that I personally think the RC want to embark on, IMO.

Quote:
I am truly sorry you do not.


Sorry yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 11:42 pm 
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The difficultly I have in understanding your point is that you seem to be saying that the rules council's rules are largely superfluous -espousing 'home rules' as being of the utmost- yet now go on to say the rules council IS important, while simultaneously saying their standardizing rules are anything but. It's all quite confusing for me how someone can think the RC is very important and also think most of what they do largely irrelevant because it is meant to be superseded.

Also, please, -for the third time- I am not asking for an increase in time commitment, just that I hope they are looking at other perspectives as the format widens its fan base (which -for all I know- they're already doing, so really I'm just saying I hope they are; 'hope' being the keyword here, not 'demand' or 'require').
Pysces wrote:
It is a name change solely aimed at pleasing a group of people who can't take anything but 'official' as the bottom line.
Yes, exactly my point. They ARE the group that particular thing should be aimed at. I'm glad we could come to that understanding at least.

Sheldon wrote:
That said, the direction of the RC and the Banned List will still remain "what's best for the format and its fans" and not "what makes better competitive tournaments."

Are these things mutually exclusive?

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