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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-03 1:27 am 
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5ColorControl wrote:
The difficultly I have in understanding your point is that you seem to be saying that the rules council's rules are largely superfluous -espousing 'home rules' as being of the utmost- yet now go on to say the rules council IS important, while simultaneously saying their standardizing rules are anything but. It's all quite confusing for me how someone can think the RC is very important and also think most of what they do largely irrelevant because it is meant to be superseded.


I'll try an analogy instead.

EDH/Commander to me is the equivalent of a piece of open source software (e.g. Linux).

Some great guys got together and made a program, and they share it freely with everyone. What everyone does with that program is up to them, and what the great guys do is continue to work on the program because they love the program and they want to share their discoveries and developments of the program.

The great guys are important, worth respecting, and worth listening to when they have something to say because as creators of the program, they likely have unique insight and experiences with the program. I want to hear what they say and I want to follow their developments solely because what they do and say is interesting, but not because I can't think or do it for myself.

As an open source software, it's basically my gifted right (from the creators) to ignore them and disagree with their approaches just as it's my right to just follow along with whatever they say and do. They are actively trying to encourage people to branch off and do their own thing.

However, if I take my heavily modified program to Joe's place, and Joe is running his modified version of the software, and we find out we can't have our sexy lan party together because our programs won't talk to each other (I am not a software expert by any means, so at this stage I am making shit up) it's our responsibility to sort it out. Either Joe uses my version, or he uses mine, or we go back to the default. At no point do I go back to the creators to solve the problem for me though. They don't need to make my version standard, nor do they need to make Joe's, just as their version isn't standard either (it's just widely used, because people are lazy, unwilling to change it, or happy with it).

What I think you want is for the RC to develop the next Windows. I can grok why Windows is appealing to the average user and it's strengths in addressing the masses. It's a packaged software usable straight out of the box. Relatively little tweaking or setup required. I show up at Joe's place, we can setup and have our 40 hour marathon of lan heaven. However that packaged software is heavily constrictive in what you can do with it, and heavily moderated by the 'creators'. They say what you can and cannot do with the software. For some (such as yourself) this is exactly what you want, and that's fair enough, but there are pros and cons to each. For others, such as myself, the more you constrict and standardize something, the less flexible you can be with it.

If you don't care or see the benefit to modifying something, or can't modify it yourself, I totally understand why you would be petitioning the creators to make the stock standard software as perfect for you as it possibly could be. They are your sole access to 'get things how you like it'. As the creators, you feel its their responsibility to honour this exchange and nurture their baby. I disagree with this profoundly. They have no obligation or responsibility to do anything. Anything past providing you the stock software to work with they do so out of love for the format, not out of responsibility or obligation to it or the users.

If you do modify things though, you should fully understand and be mortified at the thought of less 'freedom' and should understand why you may not care sometimes what the creators do. You are also significantly less uptight about the program being 'perfect', because you'll likely change it or fix it per your preference anyway. You'll be making the software perfect for you, instead of relying on group of people who would be trying to make it perfect everyone.

Keep in mind, the entire format was born from the creative modifying process I'm describing. Your argument is that it has grown beyond its roots. My argument is that holding onto its roots is important, and imbuing others with the creative freedom to make their own discoveries, such as those originally made by the RC in the beginning is important to hold onto. The more you cannibalize and standardize something, the harder you make it for anyone to convince others to try something new. As it is, people already express frustration with this already and (IMO) misguidedly look to the RC to fix it for them.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-03 5:46 am 
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Yes, but should not the base operating system be such that you can use it efficiently without needing to know how to program? The problem I have with your position is you seem to be saying people without the ability to rewrite the base operating system really shouldn't be using it at all. Or -at least- should not expect to be able to use it safely. Despite what you're saying, you can make it safe to use out-of-the-box that and STILL leave it open source.

Also -as you point out- if you don't have a standardized system for those that want it you'd be unable to have the computers on different networks talk to one another. A program written by one network of users would not necessary be able to be ported over to another, or -at least- not easily. You fracture the community of users as they become less and less able to relate to one another, and less and less able to play with one another.

I am saying that everyone should be able to use the code and the code should be written such that those that like to play around with it can, but those that don't still have a system they can use.
Additionally, its not the independent programmers you need to worry about, they know how to tailor the system to their own needs, and they will. But, the base programing should be written such that those without the knowledge or imagination to muck around with it can use it without it crashing on them all the time.

If your system can't be used as-is and comes buggy or with backdoors by design something is wrong. But, you seem to be saying it should be written that way because you have a disdain for the riff-raft that might try using it. You WANT it to crash on them so they either stop or learn to code.

That is simply bad programing philosophy and I hope the RC does not share the sentiment.

Leave the code open source -by all means- but put in some basic protection for those that don't feel like -or don't know how to- rewrite it and just want to use it. Let those that want to -and can- remove that protection, but have the code come with it for those that can't.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-03 11:59 am 
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... and thats why we will never agree. Droping the analogy, I think the core game is fine the way it is, you don't. The improvements you have pushed for, i don't see as improvements at all.

Im not saying things can't be improved either, I just haven't seen an idea worth jumping up and down for in a long time. If the RC or anyone come up with a good idea or change, ill take note and if it's REALLY good, ill fight for it. Whether that good idea is official or not though, won't matter to much, as I have the luxary to change it.

Reversing the situation, what if the RC change things, and you don't like them? As I said, they can't please everyone. Under the current model, they don't have to.

Just keep reminding yourself, I dont consider the core rules of the game broken in anyway that overly concerns me, you haven't convinced me it is either.

So as usual we agree to disagree.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-03 12:10 pm 
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Pysces wrote:
I think the core game is fine the way it is, you don't.

With regards to me this statement is grossly untrue. I have absolutely no idea where you could have drawn this conclusion from and I know I've stated the exact opposing opinion on numerous occasions on this very forum. Currently, I have simply been stating my worry about the direction the game might be headed based on the philosophy the people steering it might have. Not being any kind of mindreader (not even a bad one ;) ) I have no way of validating my worry, so I have been simply expressing it.

However, if after all this you still believe that is where I am coming from than we do indeed seem to be at an impasse. So, you are definitely right about us needing to take a break for a bit and maybe reflect on what was said. In doing so perhaps later we might be able to better communicate our ideas to one another at a later date with some added perspective about the other person's mindset, and with a clear and open one of our own.

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Last edited by 5ColorControl on 2012-Mar-03 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-03 12:24 pm 
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5ColorControl wrote:
Pysces wrote:
I think the core game is fine the way it is, you don't.

With regards to me this statement is grossly untrue. I have absolutely no idea where you could have drawn this conclusion from and I know I've stated the exact opposing opinion on numerous occasions on this very form.

However, if even after all this you still believe that is where I am coming from than we do indeed seem to be at an impasse. So, you are definitely right about us needing to take a break for a bit and maybe reflect on what was said. In doing so perhaps later we might be able to better communicate our ideas to one another at a later date with some added perspective about the other person's mindset, and with a clear and open one of our own.


Uhhh, look happy to drop things, but if what I say is grossly untrue, why did you have a 5 page debate about the legality of off colour cards?

We are debating in a thread where you have flat out stated you feel the colour identity rules are counter intuitive.

If those are the threads and words of someone who considers themselves satisfied with the core rules, then yes, colour me clueless and I shall now go seek penance for my ignorance.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-03 12:41 pm 
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Pysces wrote:
Uhhh, look happy to drop things, but if what I say is grossly untrue, why did you have a 8 page debate about the legality of off colour cards?

Oh, -to be hyperbolic- are you of the opinion that EDH is absolutely perfect in every way and it can't possibly be improved upon?
I am not, but I do feel the game is certainly adequate -or as you said- "fine."

Someone can think something can be better, or worry that it might be going slightly off course, without hating it or thinking that it is flawed beyond repair. In fact, it is from caring about something that we are often driven to try to improve it (and I full accept I might be misguided, but I am still driven to try). That is where my motivation is coming from, not from hate.
Pysces wrote:
We are debating in a thread where you have flat out stated you feel the colour identity rules are counter intuitive.
Indeed. Many Magic rules are, which is one of the things that prompted the M10 changes.

But, you would never catch me saying Magic was -or is- a bad game. I love Magic.
Pysces wrote:
If those are the threads and words of someone who considers themselves satisfied with the core rules, then yes, colour me clueless and I shall now go seek penance for my ignorance.
*chuckle* There is no need for such drastic action. I am sure you've debated haters in the past and I am sure that is probably where you're coloring of me comes from. But, do try and remember I am not them.

I am me.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-03 1:38 pm 
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I can only draw conclusions off what you write, not how you perceive what you write in your head.

Stop accusing me of dealing in absolutes, then doing the same.

If I thought the format needed improving, I'd state my opinion about it (if I felt the need to). I've done so numerous times. As it stands, when it comes specifically to the core rules of the format itself, yes I am 100% happy with the rules at the moment. No questions. However, in light of new developments, I am entitled as anyone to change my opinion should an idea comes up that gets me excited.

Why are you the only one in this debate that is free to change their opinion about something, if presented with new evidence? Current lack of evidence leaves me of the opinion that things are basically good as they are, that's it, nothing more. Just how you think I'm trying to open the curtains and find a big scary rule hating asshole, so too are you trying to open the curtains and find what amounts to a internet 'white knight'. Can we both just agree that neither of us are sitting on some extreme side of the fence, and go back to debating ideas, not defensive positions?

Factually speaking at present, you ARE dissatisfied with some aspects of the core rules. There is no hand waving about this. Just as factually speaking, I AM currently satisfied with them. Both of our opinions could change at any time.


Our debate lies on two lines.

1) Are the core rules completely satisfactory

2) How does the RC address those who don't think so

My conclusion is the core rules are currently satisfactory, and the RC does not need to address the number 2's because they have provided what I feel is a adequate life line to do it themselves.

As far as I'm concerned, you disagree. Okay, we concluded that 4 or 5 posts ago. Posts past that have been merely us trying to express the same opinions and stances, in different words.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-03 2:15 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Person 1:
This argument is getting us nowhere. I say we drop it.

Person 2:
I agree that it's getting us nowhere and it's because you're a doody-head. Consider me out.

Person 1:
Well I'm glad you're out because I'm tired of arguing with a doody-head. Good thing this argument is over.

Person 2:
It is great that this argument is over and that I have the last word.

Person 1:
I'll let you have the last word then because I want this argument to be over.

Person 2:
No, I'll let you have the last word because I want this argument to be over even more than you do.

intreped:
Let's put it to a vote, folks - who wants the argument to be over:
a) Person 1
b) Person 2
c) None of the above


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-03 2:20 pm 
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intreped wrote:
Person 1:
This argument is getting us nowhere. I say we drop it.

Person 2:
I agree that it's getting us nowhere and it's because you're a doody-head. Consider me out.

Person 1:
Well I'm glad you're out because I'm tired of arguing with a doody-head. Good thing this argument is over.

Person 2:
It is great that this argument is over and that I have the last word.

Person 1:
I'll let you have the last word then because I want this argument to be over.

Person 2:
No, I'll let you have the last word because I want this argument to be over even more than you do.

intreped:
Let's put it to a vote, folks - who wants the argument to be over:
a) Person 1
b) Person 2
c) None of the above


I don't see your point, are you a doody-head too? Don't make me get all internet debatey on you...

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-03 2:26 pm 
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Pysces wrote:
I don't see your point, are you a doody-head too? Don't make me get all internet debatey on you...

You're wrong, but I'll let you have the last word to show that I'm the real winner. I'm out.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-03 2:30 pm 
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intreped wrote:
Pysces wrote:
I don't see your point, are you a doody-head too? Don't make me get all internet debatey on you...

You're wrong, but I'll let you have the last word to show that I'm the real winner. I'm out.


-last word-


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-03 2:32 pm 
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Pysces wrote:
-last word-

See how well I let you have that? Now that I've done that, I'm out.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-03 2:34 pm 
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intreped wrote:
Pysces wrote:
-last word-

See how well I let you have that? Now that I've done that, I'm out.


This is awesome, it's like the real thing, only I don't have to think!

/flexes internet epeen

No you first good sir.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-03 2:36 pm 
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:facepalm:

Anyway,
If you truly wish to continue -and aren't just getting "internet debatey" on me- please feel free to PM me, aim me, or email me (5colorcontrol(at)gmail.com) So we might have a meaningful conversation in order to better understand one another.

'Cuz I am definitively 'out' at this point here.

(Well, I know I make lots and lots of typo's but I really did think 'definitively' would be a better word to use there than 'definitely,' but I can understand why people might not believe me)

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Last edited by 5ColorControl on 2012-Mar-03 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-03 2:45 pm 
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5ColorControl wrote:
'Cuz I am definitively 'out' at this point here.

Me too. Definitively.


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