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 Post subject: Let's talk banned list
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-19 9:21 am 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-18 9:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Luna
This is the current banned list:

Balance
Worldgorger Dragon
Biorhythm
Sway of the Stars
Upheaval
Panoptic Mirror
Crucible of Worlds
Kokusho, the Evening Star
Limited Resources
Riftsweeper
Karakas
Ancestral Recall
Black Lotus
Mox Sapphire, Ruby, Pearl, Emerald and Jet
Time Walk
Library of Alexandria
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Coalition Victory
Recurring Nightmare
Protean Hulk
Grindstone
Lion's Eye Diamond
Time Vault *NEW*

I posted this because I'm curious why some of these are on here.

If there's a specific combo that's degenerate, what is it?

If there's a general principle behind it, what is it?

I understand Worldgorger Dragon, Crucible of Worlds, Kokusho, the Evening Star, Limited Resources, Karakas, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Coalition Victory, Recurring Nightmare, Protean Hulk, Grindstone and Lion's Eye Diamond.

But what about the rest?

Are the Power 9 on there just because of their limited availibility?


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-19 10:51 am 
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Joined: 2008-Apr-09 1:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I am not sure about the p9 but I would speculate that they are there because of limited availability.

I actually have no clue why Worldgorger Dragon was ever banned...what is the combo (or deck) that broke it?

First of all, alt.win conditions were banned. Preserving EDH's unique flavor (Generals) was the reason. This explains Biorhythm (and Coalition Victory), because there were decks that were built to abuse those win conditions. It's much harder to win with the other alt. win conditions, most of which require you to wait till your next upkeep, giving others enough time to stop you.

Riftsweeper was banned due to the same reasons as Karakas. They originally received erratas for Generals but this was way too confusing (esp. when trying to introduce the format to new-to-edh players) so the easier way was just to ban it.

Degenerate combos involved Time Vault and Panoptic Mirror (as well as Grindstone).

Balance was discussed in your other thread. In fact, most of the cards on the ban list have been discussed at one point or another.

As for Sway of the Stars and Upheaval, I wouldn't want to play against them. It's boring to see the caster float a bunch of mana, screw up our boards, and just replay all his stuff, pretty much clinching the win save the fact that the other players weren't at zero life yet. The un-funness goes against what players are looking for when they play a casual format. I guess this can go under degenerate combos as well.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-19 11:00 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-21 8:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Everything up there with the exception of LIbrary of Alexandria makes sense. I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that anyone is going to waste their time giving you a detailed explanation behind each banning (and I am apparently wrong about this...lol). Please search the forum archives and you'll find decent explanations for pretty much every card, and threads for more hotly disputed banned cards.

The power 9 specifically breaks the casting cost for mana acceleration cards (zero with no drawbacks)

The others in general go infinite/win instantly, provide easily accessable recursion(or break under recursion) or impact the gamestate too irreperably (for example, limited resources)

THAT is what about the rest...do you actually have a question or are you just lazy and don't want to surf the forum archives for your answers?


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-19 11:02 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Library makes sense because I don't own one ;)


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-19 11:12 am 

Joined: 2007-Dec-11 9:29 pm
Age: Drake
Location: duluth
alot of the first banning were because of the cost of the cards.. p9 is crap in a 99 cards highlander deck.. you have more of a chance wasting a draw late game on a mox/lotus then you do in regular magic..lions eye diamond is really crappy in this format as well..


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-19 11:22 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Sek'Kuar wrote:
lions eye diamond is really crappy in this format as well..


Auriok Salvagers. Like I said, most of these cards go infinite and win instantly. And no...p9 is not crap in EDH...the only format where p9 is crap is one where mana is meaningless, replacing a land with a mox is just better.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-19 11:31 am 

Joined: 2007-Dec-11 9:29 pm
Age: Drake
Location: duluth
and your sure noone can wreck that crappy little combo? everyone in my group runs many ways to kill combo decks.. and tons of ways to kill creatures.. weak combo.. so i guess good for you if you can attempt to go infinite.. besides power artifact is not banned...palincron is also not banned.. dream halls is not banned.. aluren is not banned..eye of the storm is not banned..ashnod's altar is not banned...


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-19 11:35 am 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-18 9:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Luna
Replacing a land with a mox is just better, but unless you have a 5 color general, you're not playing with 5 of them.

Odds of drawing it in your opening hand is low, and its not a card worth wasting a tutor slot for.

It's good. But the standard of brokeness in EDH is different. And most of the time the format corrects it.

So you play your general on turn 2 instead of turn 4. STP still only costs 1 white.

Quote:
Worldgorger Dragon


Someone mentioned Worldgorger Dragon. Yes, it's part of a combo. Pretty easy to pop off.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-19 11:37 am 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-18 9:17 am
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Location: Luna
Also:

Quote:
do you actually have a question or are you just lazy and don't want to surf the forum archives for your answers?


Not for nothing but, yes, I'm sure its been discussed before.

But the EDH Rules Committe will be the first to tell you the banned list isn't set in stone.

So is there harm in discussing it? In questioning it again and again?

I think it's healthy for the format.

No need to call names.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-19 8:39 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Apr-09 1:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sek'Kuar wrote:
and your sure noone can wreck that crappy little combo? everyone in my group runs many ways to kill combo decks.. and tons of ways to kill creatures.. weak combo.. so i guess good for you if you can attempt to go infinite.. besides power artifact is not banned...palincron is also not banned.. dream halls is not banned.. aluren is not banned..eye of the storm is not banned..ashnod's altar is not banned...


I'd suppose that the combo players would be pretty prepared to fight hate :wink:

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 1:33 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
Quote:
besides power artifact is not banned...palincron is also not banned.. dream halls is not banned.. aluren is not banned..eye of the storm is not banned..ashnod's altar is not banned...

sure theyre not banned, but people wont stop talking shit about them (and other cards at a similar power level) like they suck when they are actually amazing.
Quote:
First of all, alt.win conditions were banned. Preserving EDH's unique flavor (Generals) was the reason. This explains Biorhythm (and Coalition Victory), because there were decks that were built to abuse those win conditions.

um... if youre building decks that are not designed to abuse win conditions then im not sure you know how to play this game. aside from having fun and socializing, what is the objective of this or any game??? is it losing? because that would be a stupid game...

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 6:08 am 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Read this sticky:

http://edh.truespace.ca/EDH_Forum/viewtopic.php?t=335

There are general banning principles, but any time a decision is made to ban something, it's in the interest of the health of the format.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 8:41 am 
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Joined: 2007-Aug-22 6:34 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Pennsylvania
So any EDH B/R updates for March 20th?

norbert88

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My EDH Decks:
Sol'kanar the Swamp King
Crovax, Ascendant Hero
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Tolsimir Wolfblood
Kangee, Aerie Keeper
Verdeloth the Ancient
Phelddagrif
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
Hakim, Loreweaver
Seizan, Perverter of Truth
Horde of Notions
Thelon of Havenwood
Zedruu the Greathearted
Lyzolda the Blood Witch

In progress:
RG Tribal Werewolves/Humans/Wolves


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 1:03 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-23 10:03 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: The Netherlands - Hoorn
Quote:
Effective immediately (20 March 2009):

* Tinker is Banned
* Metalworker is Banned

* Crucible of Worlds is Unbanned
* Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary is Unbanned

* Gifts Ungiven is on the Watch List
* Sundering Titan is on the Watch List
* Time Stretch is on the Watch List

Tinker
The subject of much debate, this should come as no real surprise. We decided that the low cost ability of Tinker to get high cost artifacts (such as Sundering Titan, Mindslaver, or Darksteel Colossus) into play early in games and significantly impact their outcome easily warranted its banning.

Metalworker
Cards that easily and cheaply produce great deals of mana are inherently dangerous to the health of the format. Metalworker is clearly one of those cards, and had to go.

Crucible of Worlds
We felt as though the primary combos with Crucible (Strip Mine and Wasteland) aren't particularly dangerous in a multiplayer format. We will keep an eye on other potential combos with Crucible, but think that for now, it will make the format healthier by being able to provide some control of explosive decks.

Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Rofellos has been the poster child for "what might be" without ever being proven to be broken. We think that while strong and possibly have the potential of such terribly anti-social Generals such as Braids, Zur, or Arcum, it also has many social applications. As with any unbanning, we'll keep our eyes peeled, but we seriously doubt that Rofellos will be a format-changing General.

Gifts Ungiven
You love it or you hate it. The reason it's been added to the Watch List is its ability to search your library for two of your best four cards for only four mana. There are many game-breaking two card combos, so we want to keep a serious eye on the ability to get to them so quickly.

Sundering Titan
Three, four, and five color decks being the majority of what gets played in EDH, Sundering Titan can easily strangle any single player, moreso when it comes out early. The fact that it can go into any deck and its asymmetrical nature multiplied this advantage. We're hoping that banning of Tinker and Metalworker will help, but we're still watching this for serious abuse (and recurring ST with Academy Ruins has not escaped us).

Time Stretch
The ability to take multiple turns is a significant advantage in multiplayer games. Time Stretch resolving once isn't so bad, but the second extra turn gives the player a great deal more opportunity for recursion, which we think is problematic. The primary thing saving Time Stretch from the banned list right now is that it costs 10 mana. We'll revisit next time.


I'm totally thinking of building a Rofellos deck now :P Although it isn't all that special ^o) Pity Tinker is banned, always liked that card.


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 Post subject: New list has some flaws
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 1:22 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jan-29 5:35 pm
Age: Drake
The new banned list is flawed. Metal worker being banned is kind of stupid. Yes, you can combo out and win, but the creature is a 1/2 and when he comes out it basically says target that guy playing that shit. Tinker unlike my other play group member is worthy of a ban since you can tinker in what ever annoying ass artifact that you want. Un banning crucible of worlds i believe is a dumb move especially with refellos. Man, finally i can make a turbo land green deck, that is dumb and over powered. Can anyone say wasteland/stripmine, zuran orb, and Fastbond. Also throw in glacial caverns for shits and giggles. This card will be almost mandatory for every deck, since now land destruction will be alot easier to build. I say GG.

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