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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-26 10:31 am 

Joined: 2007-Apr-03 12:06 pm
Age: Drake
My only issue with unbanning Crucible is that my group tends to play a lot more 1v1 than multiplayer, mostly due to the fact that we do impromptu games between rounds at tourneys and such, so it's rare for the games to involve more than 2 people.

Crucible's applications with Strip Mine, et al are far more insidious in 1v1 play than in multiplayer. You don't need to get the god hand to lock your opponent out of the game; all you really need is an average card-drawing/tutoring suite and for the game to be average length for it to become a factor.

I'm not proclaiming doom or anything, because there are many ways around it. Just thought I'd give the perspective of someone who does a lot of 1v1.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-26 1:03 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jan-08 10:10 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Colorado
i also happen to play alot of duels, and i would say that is the heart of my objection to crucible's unbanning. its surprising how many duels are won or lost just from the life from the loam/strip mine machine, and crucible makes for the same situation to occur more, and in a wider range of decks (any). granted both loam and crucible can be dealt with, but if someone gets it online turn 2-3, you have a very narrow window in which to do so or you just lose. i realize most people play mostly multi-player, and from that prospective i'd not be too worried about crucible or even fastbond for that matter. even the zuran orb life combo can be dealt with via an infinite damage combo or infinite forced card draw. i do agree with tinker gettin the axe, that's the last thing crucible needs to be slumming around with


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-26 2:44 pm 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-09 4:17 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
Heads up EDH is a fairly different game, and the main banned list isn't really optimized for it. That was intentional, but we've been in contact with groups more interested in two player games, to try and get a better picture of what EDH could/should be in two player games. Based on various threads in the Dueling Strategy forum, conversations with some folks from the French EDH community (which has more emphasis on heads-up play and for a while had a reasonable, stable B&R list designed for two player games), etc we may make some adjustments in the future to better accommodate the differences between multiplayer and two player games.

Note that better support for two-player does not necessarily mean better support for untrusted games or antisocial playstyles. Multiplayer EDH can be quite broken if the players try (it's the Vintage cardpool after all), because it's optimized for social interactions, not competitive ones. The same would be true regardless of the number of players (which is why most people don't care... usually multiplayer is better for social games anyway).

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-26 2:47 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-15 9:31 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Thanks Warble for the reply. I should probably put those broken artifacts in. I was trying to keep the land count high so as too get as much out of Horn of Greed, Trade Routes, Zuran Orb, Fastbond, Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam, etc. as possible. That was the only reason I hadn't added Crypt/Ring/Vault. I haven't tried them yet, but adding those cards to a combo deck usually makes the deck more degenerate, which is always good.

Ghost Quarter I just haven't added yet. The only reason I hadn't added it was that I was under the assumption that if I were trying to land lock the whole table, I would have to have a life gain mechanism in play to kill all the basic lands they get afterwards. What I hadn't considered until now is that the mere chance of that happening makes it worth it, since Ghost Quarter is a good stand alone card anyway. So Ghost Quarter goes in.

The Oath may be somewhat random (old school turboland used to run it in extended) but it's really not that bad to tutor up in most stages of the game. It makes the deck less streamlined though, and thus less of a combo deck so I see your point. I didn't want to put Palinchron/Wake in yet another one of my decks (I have had it in 2 already). That is also the same reason I didn't play a 5 color general; I already play Sliver Queen and Horde of Notions. I hadn't considered Tidespout Tyrant and I'll put that in over Simic Sky Swallower, Oath or no Oath.

I probably won't include Forbidden Orchard because, in multiplayer, I've never had a problem with at least one player having a creature in play, and that's all it takes to trigger Oath. I can also donate people hippos with my general.

Regarding the guys talking about Crucible and Loam in duels, keep in mind that the EDH banned and restricted list is based upon the assumption that you're playing a multiplayer game. You may very well be correct that those cards are overpowered in duels. If you want a dueling banned and restricted list, you might want to include the stuff on the Online Singleton list that isn't on the EDH B&R list. Crucible and LftL are banned in online singleton, and strip mine/wasteland recursion might very well may be the dominant reason.

edit: Looks like Genomancer beat me too the point in my last paragraph.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-07 10:18 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-21 8:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Just because this thread needs love...

Fastbond is a huge issue and I know at least one playgroup is getting consistently hosed by the fastbond+crucible infinite in multiplayer. While it's not universally evident yet how easy it is to win with this combo, playgroups infected with fastbond and crucible are unable to combat it. I'd propose that playgroups infected with this combo try locally banning fastbond and experimenting around with crucible just to see if crucible was really ever the problem or if it was in fact the infinite with fastbond that was the real issue. With crucible providing a house for lands, cards like fastbond just operate too consistently with the mechanic change, but it seems like we won't be getting an emergency ban or anything so I'd suggest you address these issues as you see fit and then provide your feedback so we can understand the effect of the banlist changes.

I know...fastbond is infinite-ing it up...and I'm sorry. My playgroup eschews infinites so personally I'm safe, but if you guys aren't, your best alternative may be to change the game instead of putting in 5-10 graveyard+artifact hate cards and then still ineffectively combatting fastbond+crucible in certain environments. This definitely isn't the first time someone's posted this and it definitely wont be the last, "It's only one card." If you don't like it, don't play with it (in your playgroup). Casual means some strategies actually may get $hat on in deck construction by your playgroup....and that's perfectly legitimate... Other playgroups my prefer to bang their heads against an infinite wall while trying to solve it (some rather successfully) but the wall is quite a bit too steep for lots of playgroups to want to attempt to battle...

The attack step is the only step that I ever want to win an EDH game in.


Last edited by warble on 2009-Apr-07 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-07 11:22 am 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Fastbond is getting a LOT of attention. I'm reading nearly every report I can get my hands on.

_________________
"Leave the gun. Take the cannolis."


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-07 1:10 pm 

Joined: 2009-Mar-10 4:29 pm
Age: Drake
I posted a thread on this, but Fastbond is unreal. Just makes the first person to drop it too hard to control


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