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 Post subject: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 12:11 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jul-19 2:59 am
Age: Wyvern
Let me preface this by saying that I think the RC does a great job maintaining a ban list without any sort of tournament data or anything, it's an absurdly hard task and I'm grateful I don't have to do it. There are a few cards on the list that I don't personally agree should be banned, but I can at least see the reasons why and where people are coming from.

The exception is Painter's Servant. Ever since I started playing EDH several years ago I have not heard one single legitimate argument why this card should still be banned. I feel like the RC has just forgotten about this card, which is unfortunate because it's a cool card that enables many fun interactions and synergies that are not broken at all.

The reasons people usually give are:

1) Grindstone. Yes, I get that the Servant combos with Grindstone. But since when is being part of 2-card combos constitute banning in EDH? There are tons of cards that combo with everything and their mother and yet they are (rightfully) not banned. Kiki-Jiki nearly goes infinite with Grizzly Bears, and yet, hardly anybody is calling for it to be put on the list. Same with Palinchron. Or Ashnod's Altar. Helm of Obedience + Rest in Peace does the exact same thing as PS+Grindstone, in fact arguably better because it gets around Eldrazi.

2) Iona, Shield of Emeria. This one holds a bit more water because unlike most infinite combos that just win, this one locks people out of the game without actually winning. But there are other, easier to assemble combos that do the same thing (Teferi+Knowledge Pool anyone?). The main issue with this combo when it was legal was people Tooth and Nailing into it, but it's Tooth and Nail that's the problem there, not PS. If somebody wants to TNN into a degenerate combo they will do so regardless. If PS is unbanned we are not going to start seeing people run it with Iona any more that people run Teferi + Knowledge Pool now.

If the above two combos are really that much of an issue to the point where the RC feels the need to stop them with banning, why not ban Iona and Grindstone instead? Iona is one of the least fun cards in the format, there are exactly 0 ways to use her in a fun way. Grindstone is pretty boring, I don't think I've ever seen anyone run it since it was unbanned. PS on the other hand has many cool uses besides comboing or locking people out of the game. I don't think 2 card combos require banning, but if the RC really thinks so, why ban the half that can actually be used for other interesting things? Iona is by herself unfun and degenerate. She is far more bannable than the Servant, if at all.

There are a number of other cards that PS "combos" with, but none of these combos are even remotely close enough to being broken to warrant banning. Since my play group house-unbanned PS, this is what it has been used for:

-In Jaya Ballard to make everything blue (perfectly fair and reasonable)
-In Savra to make everything black and get more triggers for the grave pact effect (also perfectly fair and reasonable)
-With Brightflame for epic awesome removal
etc

So, in summary, I'll argue that while Painter's Servant has a few degenerate/mean interactions that can be abused, it has enough fun/interesting interactions to warrant its removal from the banned list. Again, banning a card because it combos with other cards, even if it combos with a lot of other cards, is a horrible precedent. The ban list would easily triple in size if cards started getting banned for the same reasons PS was.

Let me also point out that the last time the RC unbanned a "notorious" combo card (Staff of Domination, there was effectively no negative effect on the format. Same for Worldgorger Dragon when it was unbanned. People can do degenerate things with these cards but choose not to, just like they choose not to play hard Teferi locks or Obliterate the board for no reason. If Servant is unbanned, we have to believe the same will happen.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 1:51 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
search.php

A link to the past.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 1:53 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jul-19 2:59 am
Age: Wyvern
MRHblue wrote:
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/search.php

A link to the past.


I've looked through basically every thread regarding PS. Not a single one contained a legitimate argument in favor of keeping PS banned. There was one that was 7+ pages where the vast majority agreed it shouldn't be banned.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 2:16 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
And so instead of adding another copy of the same argument to the last thread you opened a new one.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 2:17 pm 

Joined: 2010-Mar-04 8:34 am
Age: Drake
If Iona and Grindstone were the only reasons for a Painter's Servant ban, I agree it should be handled otherwise (e.g. ban Grindstone and probably Iona), but I don't think it's just that.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 2:18 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jul-19 2:59 am
Age: Wyvern
tarnar wrote:
And so instead of adding another copy of the same argument to the last thread you opened a new one.


Those threads have gone stale. It's really time for the RC to make something happen on this.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 2:19 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
While I agree that there isn't a single legitimate reason to keep Servant on the banlist, I've accepted the fact that it killed the RC's cat or something because they have an irrational hatred and fear of that card.

I think the reason they currently have it banned is something about most its interactions reducing interactivity..... Assuming that that's ever been a reason anything has been banned or been considered for banning, that's not a good reason for banning PS. The vast majority of its PLAYABLE interactions are with generals, and the vast majority of them aren't uninteractive, and those that are are "obviously antisocial". All of those stupid cards like Deathgrip aren't good enough on their own to run in a deck with PS unless you're specifically trying to be a douche.

But, for some reason, Painter's Servant makes the otherwise intelligent and reasonable RC members go kinda crazy.

Another thing I really don't like about the Servant's banning is that every time the argument starts, an RC member will say that PS discussion is annoying because the reasons it's actually banned are always ignored. Then people will ask what those reasons are, at which point the RC will say them. Then, the pro unban people will debunk that logic, then someone else will always claim "yeah, but the REAL reason PS is banned is ____", at which point people will then debunk that argument, causing someone to point out the actual reason it's banned, and it's an endless circle.

tarnar wrote:
And so instead of adding another copy of the same argument to the last thread you opened a new one.
I know! He's such an asshole for opening a new thread instead of posting in the old thread. And it doesn't even matter that the old thread was locked......


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 2:34 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Old thread was locked because this horse is dead. There is nothing new to say and, shockingly, nothing new has been said.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 2:40 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
FZA wrote:
Those threads have gone stale. It's really time for the RC to make something happen on this.

So present something new that would make them do so. Clearly the old information didn't get there, what have you got? I honestly don't have an issue with his status either way, I probably would not play him if it was legal outside Reaper King

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 2:48 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
asi wrote:
If Iona and Grindstone were the only reasons for a Painter's Servant ban, I agree it should be handled otherwise (e.g. ban Grindstone and probably Iona), but I don't think it's just that.

Iona could be banned just for being a generally unfun card, but I don't think Grindstone needs to go. It's easy to fight Painter + Stone and there are already tons of two-card winning combos loose in the format. Another won't really break anything.

I would like to see PS back just so I can build Teysa again.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 3:17 pm 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Saskatchewan
See, every time I see someone bring this up, I want to ask this: Why is it that you specifically want it un-banned? Not the reason you think people will want to hear, but that you specifically want it un-banned, for yourself. If you state "because it could be fun", then your argument falls into the category of "different people think different things are fun."

You can call the threads stale all you want, but neither side has seen a new argument probably since I started on these forums (at least that I have noticed), which makes it a stale discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 3:21 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
If one thinks that Ban Lists should be as short as possible - and there are compelling arguments along those lines - then Painter's Servant is one of the easier cards to take off.

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kaldare wrote:
Printing generically and boringly powerful cards obviously intended for commander does the format zero favors.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 3:39 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jul-19 2:59 am
Age: Wyvern
Ukkmaster wrote:
See, every time I see someone bring this up, I want to ask this: Why is it that you specifically want it un-banned? Not the reason you think people will want to hear, but that you specifically want it un-banned, for yourself. If you state "because it could be fun", then your argument falls into the category of "different people think different things are fun."

You can call the threads stale all you want, but neither side has seen a new argument probably since I started on these forums (at least that I have noticed), which makes it a stale discussion.


It doesn't need a new argument. The old ones were perfectly valid, just look at any of those threads, there are tons of good arguments in favor of unbanning PS and zero in favor of keeping it banned. I honestly feel like the RC has just forgotten about this card. If they were to sit down and think about if for a second they'd realize that it's completely absurd to keep it banned.

I shouldn't have to come up with a list of uses for it to be unbanned, either, though I did list some cool uses of PS in my original post, and could list tons more if you wanted me to. The burden of proof should always be on those in favor of banning, not those in favor of unbanning. If there isn't overwhelming support/evidence for a card to be banned, it shouldn't be.

The fact that it is on the banlist should not be a reason to keep it banned. It should be evaluated independently every single time the RC makes a rules announcement. Not just just forgotten and assumed to be ban worthy because it is already on the list.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 4:07 pm 

Joined: 2012-Nov-21 3:29 am
Age: Drake
I don't really care much, but it doesn't make sense to have this banned and Iona unbanned.

There's nothing fun that could ever happen with Iona, and I can't think of another interaction that's as bad (Grindstone is a pretty weak card by itself, and eats owned by Eldrazi).


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 4:39 pm 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Saskatchewan
FZA wrote:
Ukkmaster wrote:
See, every time I see someone bring this up, I want to ask this: Why is it that you specifically want it un-banned? Not the reason you think people will want to hear, but that you specifically want it un-banned, for yourself. If you state "because it could be fun", then your argument falls into the category of "different people think different things are fun."

You can call the threads stale all you want, but neither side has seen a new argument probably since I started on these forums (at least that I have noticed), which makes it a stale discussion.


It doesn't need a new argument. The old ones were perfectly valid, just look at any of those threads, there are tons of good arguments in favor of unbanning PS and zero in favor of keeping it banned. I honestly feel like the RC has just forgotten about this card. If they were to sit down and think about if for a second they'd realize that it's completely absurd to keep it banned.

I shouldn't have to come up with a list of uses for it to be unbanned, either, though I did list some cool uses of PS in my original post, and could list tons more if you wanted me to. The burden of proof should always be on those in favor of banning, not those in favor of unbanning. If there isn't overwhelming support/evidence for a card to be banned, it shouldn't be.

The fact that it is on the banlist should not be a reason to keep it banned. It should be evaluated independently every single time the RC makes a rules announcement. Not just just forgotten and assumed to be ban worthy because it is already on the list.


I didn't ask for a list. I asked for your reasons. For example, what does it add to the game?

Personally, I'm rather indifferent, though I know what would occur if it did, within about an 800 km range of where I live. But, then, anecdotal experience never plays into the banning or unbanning of any card, right?


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