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MTG Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander • View topic - It's time to free Painter's Servant

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 Post subject: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 12:11 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jul-19 2:59 am
Age: Wyvern
Let me preface this by saying that I think the RC does a great job maintaining a ban list without any sort of tournament data or anything, it's an absurdly hard task and I'm grateful I don't have to do it. There are a few cards on the list that I don't personally agree should be banned, but I can at least see the reasons why and where people are coming from.

The exception is . Ever since I started playing EDH several years ago I have not heard one single legitimate argument why this card should still be banned. I feel like the RC has just forgotten about this card, which is unfortunate because it's a cool card that enables many fun interactions and synergies that are not broken at all.

The reasons people usually give are:

1) . Yes, I get that the Servant combos with Grindstone. But since when is being part of 2-card combos constitute banning in EDH? There are tons of cards that combo with everything and their mother and yet they are (rightfully) not banned. Kiki-Jiki nearly goes infinite with Grizzly Bears, and yet, hardly anybody is calling for it to be put on the list. Same with . Or . Helm of Obedience + Rest in Peace does the exact same thing as PS+Grindstone, in fact arguably better because it gets around Eldrazi.

2) . This one holds a bit more water because unlike most infinite combos that just win, this one locks people out of the game without actually winning. But there are other, easier to assemble combos that do the same thing (Teferi+Knowledge Pool anyone?). The main issue with this combo when it was legal was people Tooth and Nailing into it, but it's Tooth and Nail that's the problem there, not PS. If somebody wants to TNN into a degenerate combo they will do so regardless. If PS is unbanned we are not going to start seeing people run it with Iona any more that people run Teferi + Knowledge Pool now.

If the above two combos are really that much of an issue to the point where the RC feels the need to stop them with banning, why not ban Iona and Grindstone instead? Iona is one of the least fun cards in the format, there are exactly 0 ways to use her in a fun way. Grindstone is pretty boring, I don't think I've ever seen anyone run it since it was unbanned. PS on the other hand has many cool uses besides comboing or locking people out of the game. I don't think 2 card combos require banning, but if the RC really thinks so, why ban the half that can actually be used for other interesting things? Iona is by herself unfun and degenerate. She is far more bannable than the Servant, if at all.

There are a number of other cards that PS "combos" with, but none of these combos are even remotely close enough to being broken to warrant banning. Since my play group house-unbanned PS, this is what it has been used for:

-In Jaya Ballard to make everything blue (perfectly fair and reasonable)
-In Savra to make everything black and get more triggers for the grave pact effect (also perfectly fair and reasonable)
-With for epic awesome removal
etc

So, in summary, I'll argue that while Painter's Servant has a few degenerate/mean interactions that can be abused, it has enough fun/interesting interactions to warrant its removal from the banned list. Again, banning a card because it combos with other cards, even if it combos with a lot of other cards, is a horrible precedent. The ban list would easily triple in size if cards started getting banned for the same reasons PS was.

Let me also point out that the last time the RC unbanned a "notorious" combo card (, there was effectively no negative effect on the format. Same for when it was unbanned. People can do degenerate things with these cards but choose not to, just like they choose not to play hard Teferi locks or Obliterate the board for no reason. If Servant is unbanned, we have to believe the same will happen.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 1:51 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 1:53 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jul-19 2:59 am
Age: Wyvern


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 2:16 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
And so instead of adding another copy of the same argument to the last thread you opened a new one.

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"(P)art of the joy of Commander (is) being forced to work with what we (have), even if it (isn't) optimal. Optimal usually isn't that interesting." - papa funk


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 2:17 pm 

Joined: 2010-Mar-04 8:34 am
Age: Drake
If Iona and Grindstone were the only reasons for a Painter's Servant ban, I agree it should be handled otherwise (e.g. ban Grindstone and probably Iona), but I don't think it's just that.

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"Das also war des Pudels Kern! Ein fahrender Skolast? Der Kasus macht mich lachen. -J.W.Goethe, Faust"


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 2:18 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jul-19 2:59 am
Age: Wyvern


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 2:19 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 2:34 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Old thread was locked because this horse is dead. There is nothing new to say and, shockingly, nothing new has been said.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 2:40 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 2:48 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 3:17 pm 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Saskatchewan
See, every time I see someone bring this up, I want to ask this: Why is it that you specifically want it un-banned? Not the reason you think people will want to hear, but that you specifically want it un-banned, for yourself. If you state "because it could be fun", then your argument falls into the category of "different people think different things are fun."

You can call the threads stale all you want, but neither side has seen a new argument probably since I started on these forums (at least that I have noticed), which makes it a stale discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 3:21 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
If one thinks that Ban Lists should be as short as possible - and there are compelling arguments along those lines - then Painter's Servant is one of the easier cards to take off.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 3:39 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jul-19 2:59 am
Age: Wyvern


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 4:07 pm 

Joined: 2012-Nov-21 3:29 am
Age: Drake
I don't really care much, but it doesn't make sense to have this banned and Iona unbanned.

There's nothing fun that could ever happen with Iona, and I can't think of another interaction that's as bad (Grindstone is a pretty weak card by itself, and eats owned by Eldrazi).


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 4:39 pm 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
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Location: Saskatchewan


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