It's tiresome because it's so obvious that the card should be unbanned. 29 posts and counting, still not a single even remotely legit reason for PS to stay banned has been given.

Meanwhile Uktabi and I have each given pretty sound reasoning for it to be unbanned.

To correct you, you haven't seen any reasons that you like or are willing to accept. This is why the argument is tiring for everyone because it's pretty much like that on both sides of the fence.

The difference is that most pro-ban arguments are met with a counter argument. Most pro unban arguments are met with, "yeah, but it was really banned for THIS reason".

This is ridiculous. PS has use outside of degenerate combos. It interacts extremely well with a large number of generals, which is a good enough reason to use a card in pretty much any deck. Rith gains a greater number of tokens from it, Oona is guaranteed X tokens instead of part of X, Jaya taps to Vindicate, and any general with protection becomes Whispersilk Cloaked. I'd argue that all of those uses are worth doing, and not "bad" interactions in any way. I'd argue even some of its weaker applications, such as acting as a pseudo Medallion for GAAIV or increasing all of Argus Kros's red creatures' toughness, are still worth inclusion.

Meanwhile, Time Vault is just a bad card if you aren't trying to break it. It costs you a turn so you have the chance for another turn, assuming it isn't blown up. That card doesn't belong in any deck that doesn't abuse it.

Some other reasons that comparison sucks:
1. Time Vault is old, expensive, and iconic, so you could argue it contributes to a perceived barrier.
2. PS is a pretty unique effect. Time Vault has a body double named Magosi that has all the "good" things about it, except it is far harder to break and actually does something useful when you don't break it.
3. Time Vault by itself reduces interaction in an antisocial wa, both by making you not do stuff for a turn, and giving yourself an extra turn to sit around and decksturbate. PS isn't antisocial or uninteractive by itself.

I'm going to second Uktabi Kong; I would assert that Time Vault is either hilarious garbage or better than everything but maybe Tolarian Academy and Contract from Below (depending how it is used), and comparing it to Painter's Servant isn't really fair, when Iona, Shield of Emeria is the real problem.

Isn't someone going to White Knight Iona? I need some comic relief today

So does Time Vault. I can animate it with Karn and swing for two.

Just like I can use PS to make my Demon's Horn better.

It's doing mental backflips to justify playing a card that literally will never be used except to build combos, be they degenerate, obnoxious or (very, very, VERY rarely) interesting.


There's that word, interact. That it interacts with these cards makes games LESS interactive, not more. When REB becomes Vindicate it is not increasing interaction.

That's not an argument for it improving the format.

That it makes Jaya from a not-even-mediocre Commander into something that does what (almost) no other Commander can do should be a clue.

The last thing the format needs is for colour hosers to become game hosers (hi Llawan!), for the low, low price of two colourless.

As i've said in past threads, if Mycosynth Lattice was a two CC artifact creature it would be banned in a heartbeat. It also increases interaction which is, again, code for "lets me break cards that weren't otherwise broken."


Meanwhile, Painter's Servant is just a bad card if you aren't trying to break it. It's a tiny body that does nothing until you mix it with those interactive cards. That card doesn't belong in any deck that doesn't abuse it.


It was never banned for this reason so, my congratulations on demonstrating human nature. The emotional mind is made up, then rationalize it by finding arguments that didn't even exist before your post today.


Using Magosi fairly, totally fine. Using Time Vault fairly? Not allowed!

Again, Shifting Sky is still a thing and it doesn't increase interaction with lands & cards off of the battlefield. I don't see people falling over themselves to play it, probably because it doesn't interact with the things most people want to interact with. In other words it doesn't break things nearly enough to be attractive.


More mental gymnastics. PS making MANY cards that otherwise couldn't hit lands, hit whole hands, whole libraries, is somehow increasing interaction. See previous post. "B..b..but I want to interact with my opponent's lands!"

And how doesn't the above apply to Magosi? I can skip plenty of turns with it and "reduce interaction in an antisocial way" but, again, that's somehow different?

So it seems to me like the general opinion is overwhelmingly in favor of unbanning Servant. What is the next step to take in terms of getting the RC to notice this and have a serious discussion on unbanning it?

Step 1: become a member of the RC...

The part about Karn is one of the dumbest points ever made. By that logic, Sorrow's Path is an awesome card because you can turn it into a land and destroy shit via Liege of the Tangle. You can't make a serious point about a card by using a niche scenario that applies to pretty much every card that has the same card type. And if you really want to make that point, there's no reason to ban Time Vault: it's one good application is done STRICTLY BETTER (or very close to it) by Darksteel Ingot, as well as hundreds of other cards, including some in each color like Birthing Pod.

Also, saying it will literally never be used except to build combos is a dumb point. First of all, any synergistic interaction between two cards is a combo, so while you're technically correct, the implications of it are incorrect. You can't say with a straight face that PS will do nothing but be used in tandem with horrible cards like Deathgrip to make the game suck, especially in a format like EDH. Not to mention that even assuming you are correct, why isn't Intruder Alarm for example banned? It is literally never used except to build combos, be they degenerate, obnoxious, or (very, very, VERY rarely) interesting.

Wow. So making an ok card into a slightly undercosted version of a good card is format-wrecking. Did not know that. I guess Mycosynth Lattice should be banned then, as it makes Vandalblast blow up every card that isn't yours for only 5 mana.


A clue of what? That's not really that broken of an ability by any means. Especially considering that it's doable once per turn and relies on a card that is ridiculously easy to destroy? Oh yeah, and it's in the color that is worst at ramp, second worst at draw, and worst at tutoring.

Funny. Because Curiosity allows Niv-Mizzet to become a game hoser for one mana. And really, the format could suffer far worse things than giving douchebags another mean toy that's not as good as the ones that they already have.

Mycosynth Lattice turns everything into an artifact and makes color in mana costs nonexistent. I can assure you that those effects are far more impactful on a game than changing the color of cards in the vast majority of situations.

I suppose that you would be correct, if including it in your Yeva deck to cast artifact creatures with flash or including it in your Rith deck to get more tokens counts as "abusing it". Again, those examples are assuming you DON'T also have ok cards that have color identity interactions such as Regal Force or a Medallion.


Funny. If you read the last actual arguments (as in saying something more than "it's bad") that were posted by a member of the RC regarding PS, you could say the same thing. They say over and over "the reasons it was originally banned no longer apply, but it is banned for other reasons".

Shifting Sky is not near as extensive nor ubiquitous as PS. A large number of PS's interactions, both good and bad, involve spells being cast or stuff in the hand or deck.

Also, you are missing the point. The point is that Magosi does the exact same thing that Time Vault used FAIRLY does, except it is better since it has another added purpose. This means that the format loses nothing by losing Time Vault. The format does lose a useful card without PS.

I'm not even sure you understood what I was saying, nor do you seem to understand what you're saying.
First of all, having cards be able to target more stuff is by definition making it more interactive. It is for this reason that Vindicate is a more interactive card than Shatter. Shatter does nothing to interact with the game if there are no artifacts, and it can't influence the game if the card who's effect you want to change or eliminate isn't an artifact or supported by one, while Vindicate can do all that regardless of the card type.

Secondly, your point doesn't do anything to respond to the point I was making. You're saying "PS can make other cards hit stuff in ways it couldn't before", in an attempt to respond to the point "PS isn't non-interactive or antisocial by itself". Although I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you misunderstood what I was trying to say, so I'll elaborate on what I meant: PS will not act in an antisocial or non-interactive way unless you specifically pair it with cards that do that by themselves. Rith is a card that does interactive and cool stuff, and with PS, it still does interactive and cool stuff. Deathgrip on the other hand is an antisocial and non-interactive card, and pairing it with PS will make it do the same thing. The only notable exception to this rule is Grindstone, which is a laughably bad card by itself and even with PS still is pretty weak as far as degenerate 2-card combos go.


As I said earlier, my point was that because of Magosi, banning Time Vault doesn't cost the format anything, especially since Magosi also does other stuff. This is important because one of four things will happen every time Vault is played:
1. It will never be used or it will be destroyed before it does anything
2. It will fuel a stupid game winning combo.
3. It will be cost you a turn, risk getting blown up (which probably happens more often than not), and if it doesn't, it will get you an extra turn (something is generally considered antisocial). Maybe this process can repeat itself.
4. Some niche scenario such as the Karn one you mentioned that can apply to all other artifacts

Now, Magosi is the same, except replace scenario 2 with "Produces mana and acts like an island that enters tapped".

_________________________________________________________________________

The vast majority of your points seem to be based on the idea that every single time someone uses PS, they will try to Grindstone or Iona it every single time. There are a couple reasons why that idea doesn't work.
1. Almost all cards that interact badly with PS are cards that are already pretty bad by themselves. No player who wouldn't run cards like Iona without PS would run it with PS either.
2. An almost equally large number of PS's bad interactions are with cards that are really really bad. Deathgrip and Grindstone and Anarchy are really bad. There's no reason that any competitive player who actually knows what he's doing would ever run bad cards that do very little without a fragile artifact creature there with them. This isn't Legacy, where you can run four PS's, four GS's, and four of (almost) every tutor that you want to run with them, and the decks are 60 cards big and probably even smaller because you're running fetchlands, Gitaxian Probe, and Brainstorm in fours. This is EDH, where you have 100 cards, and only one spot for the PS, it's combo piece, and each tutor you feel like using. Add in the fact that you're playing multiplayer and you have 2-5 opponents who are all running counterspells or removal as opposed to one player doing the same thing.
3. Even if that idea was reasonable, it doesn't apply to the EDH banlist. If it did, Staff of Domination, Lion's Eye Diamond, and Worldgorger Dragon would all still be on it, as Staff has few non-combo uses, LED has even less, and I'm not sure WGD has any. The RC decided a long time ago that policing combos was a futile endeavor. But apparently they and you and plenty other people who want PS banned believe that people can police themselves around combos like Mike&Trike or Kikiscripts, but for some reason PS makes them stupidheads who can't resist including the most obvious and degenerate combos and cards that PS enables.

It is my observation that the RC is interested in banning as few combos as possible. This observation, considering the above named unbannings, shows that some combos remain actionable, so long as:

1. They can go in literally every deck
2. They cost next to nothing

The format is a better place without PS+GS, it is a better place without TV+VK.

I don't think the format is made better by LED+Salvagers nor a number of other combos, but they simply are not and cannot be as ubiquitous or as fast as the above, because these other combos involve cards with coloured symbols and higher casting costs on them.

Beyond these observations there are my opinions. It's possible to satisfy the above by simply banning GS, and I'd be on side with that because it would solve the above two criteria. But then I believe people would find that PS is obnoxious and/or a trap. It looks like you can do fun stuff with it. Then you run into three mana Upheavals.

Finally,
This attitude disqualifies the bearer of it from being able to participate in this discussion, as it demonstrates that they have no perspective and fail to grasp the purpose of the banned list and the format itself. This applies to you and everyone else that holds it. Frankly, this is most likely the reason that the RC wants nothing to do with this "debate," with people like me coming in a distant second.

It doesn't matter if the combo can go in every deck though, since every deck except colorless once can already run better combos. PS+GS is a combo that kills one player at a time, is 100% nerfed by having either Eldrazi Titan in the deck, and requires two easily removable artifacts that probably don't have any synergy with the deck itself. And as I said before, the mana cost isn't as important as you seem to think it is. As I said, this isn't Legacy where you can make 13% of your deck the combo cards and plan to win by turn 5 every time. This is EDH where that is not only ridiculously harder to do, it's a multiplayer setting where if you were going to do that, PS GS would be one of the worst combos of choice for it as it only kills one player.

I'd argue the combo is only viable in a deck that:
1. Has lots of artifact or general tutors
2. Has some mill or disruption
3. Has a general that synergizes with PS.
The only deck ideas I can think of that reasonably solve all these criteria are Dromar, Crosis, Teysa, and Oona, and I'd argue that Dromar and Crosis aren't exactly the best generals if you're going to that level of competitiveness.

Any other deck you're just putting a random combo in for no reason, which is something no player competitive enough to run PS GS would ever do. This is different from say, Kiki and Conscripts, who are great cards in their own right and also tend to synergize with the same type of strategies. Same deal with shit like DEN+Venser or LarkGuide or Mike and Trike (fine, if you want to argue that Trike is a bad card, Puppeteer Clique can lead to insta-wins). And again, these examples are only insta-wins or almost unbreakable locks. We haven't even gotten into massive card advantage, massive mana advantage, or ridiculously powerful attack steps. And the list of stupidity grows even greater with multicolor.

My point is, competitive players in every color except colorless already have access to dumb, easy button combos. Adding one more bad one won't end the world.

This point I won't bother addressing, mostly because this is a difference in subjective opinion that can't really be proven or disproven by any means other than unbanning PS and seeing what happens.


Assertions without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. The point of the banlist is (in a very general sense) to do two things:
1. Eliminate cards that interact badly with the rules of EDH
2. Get rid of cards/interactions that look fun but are in actuality stupid
I don't see how PS+GS in any way "looks fun but really isn't". It's a dead obvious combo. "Hm, a card that can mill my opponent's whole library if it's one color? Hmm, if only there was a card that did that". And no player would ever run the horribly inefficient (not to mention ridiculously expensive regarding $$) Grindstone for any reason other than to do degenerate stuff with it and PS, so why should we use GS as a reason to consider disallowing non-degenerate players from running PS?

Ban Flickerform! It lets Mangara of Corondor exile a permanent every turn!

Even with PS down, Jaya lets you go 1-for-1 with any permanent. This is far from oppressive.

Frankly, even the 1-card-combo with Iona as a general is a crap argument. Mike & Trike is legal in a better color for tutoring and recursion, and is a table kill on the spot. As an aside, I'd be glad to see Iona go regardless of whether PS came back at the same time or not.

The interactions with cards that haven't yet been printed is a bad argument, too. WotC philosophy has shifted, so they don't print color hosers like they used to. Devout Lightcaster is a far cry from Exorcist.

The REAL reason that PS is still banned is because the RC is loathe to walk anything back, so they move with a glacial approach. We will continue to bring up that the ban is nonsensical, and eventually it will pulled off like Kokusho.

This thread reminds me of this;

Crap... I forgot all about Jaya Ballard. Now I'm really upset that PS is banned. It was just me wanting another Darkest Hour for teysa, or a way to make Chameleon Colossus and Circle of protections awesome... but playing Jaya and nuking stuff sounds like fun.

Better late than never.

Iona, Shield of Emeria... isn't really a problem because... everyone I know only plays 3 color decks?... so it's hard to to hurt other people more than yourself... and it adds some interesting strategy?... and encourages diversifying answers?

Seriously though, the one time I saw her played, she locked me out for the rest of the game (which, fortunately, was short).

We pay attention to all the discussions on these boards. We've already had discussions regarding PS (at most of the meetings over the last year, in fact). We still think it would do more harm to the format than good if it came off the list.