A two card, "exile all creatures you don't control" that's able to be interruped, and that only lasts until any other player gets any sort of removal (ie, about three seconds)? Yeah, that sounds pretty fair to me. If if was a single card anyone could use, it would be quite annoying. But as a "Combo" that only one deck is ever likely to play, it's just an interesting and powerful sweeper. Saying otherwise seems kind of ludicrous to me.


Iona stops people from casting anywhere from a third of their spells to nearly all of them, and can go in any deck with white, not just one particular commander's deck. But, like the "combo" above, she wouldn't be a problem is she only did so until anyone drew removal. The issue with her is that she also stops you from casting many of your removal spells... and that unlike with the Teysa situation, all players aren't equally motivated to get rid of her.


They're ignored because most of them are not, in fact, valid arguments. That's not to say there aren't any valid arguments against servant. But the most commonly presented arguments against servant tend to be flawed at best and utter BS at worst.
For example, this utter nonsense argument:


Turn 1: Forest, Mana Crypt, Hermit Druid
Turn 2: Mill your entire library, win game. Your 6 player game just ended. Whoops.
Obviously, Hermit Druid should be banned, right? Wait, no. Only an utter dBag would actually play that deck anywhere except an utterly cutthroat environment where such things are expected. That's commonly accepted by most people here. Pretending painter's servant is magically different the other 100 degenerate things that you can end the game with on turn 3 or before makes your argument utterly invalid.


Using your own logic, after a few games, even the few absolute scatterbrains (we all know a few ) who managed to convince themselves it was fair would realize otherwise and would either knock it off or have nobody to play with. Problem solved, no banning required.

See. This is the problem. It's a 1-card (+3 generic token dorks) combo for a 2 mana Exile Plague Wind. But it dies to removal so it's "pretty fair." And yet I know that several of the same people calling for this unban have also called for the DEN ban, which has the same fundamental requirement for all its worst uses and costs quadruple the mana. That's not even a double standard. That's full-on madness.


The basic argument is that PS really does one of two things:
1) Enables 2-card (typically prison-style) combos, which are generally not fun even though just being in a 2-card combo isn't ban-worthy.
2) Let's people play color-hosers as everything-hosers, which is just miserable. (Even the "fair" example of running it with Akroma's Memorial means that all of your creatures are shroud and unblockable and immune to all forms of non-targeted damage-based removal. Who is supposed to be enjoying this again?)

The ways that people identify as "interesting" or "interactive" uses are actually one of those two types of "not actually any fun" uses the overwhelming majority of the time. And the way this card was actually played indicated it wasn't even the "not actually any fun" choices that were played, but the overtly undesirable ones.

Nobody has established that there is any reason whatsoever to believe that PS would actually make games better (or even not notably worse) even if you counter-banned Iona and GS and Llawan and Wash Out to prevent the worst abuses, even though we all know it is theoretically possible for PS to not ruin a game of Magic.

How does she do that? Iona, Shield of Emeria... Doesn't stop you from playing white. Plus, a 9 mana dude is a hell of a lot less broken then a 1 and 2 drop two card colorless combo.



Except I fail to see how you would win the game in the scenario you provide? All I see is you with your deck in your graveyard.... How exactly does this win you the game? Plus, you would have to be playing green in your example....

And if you do somehow magically win like that, at least everyone can start another game. Let's look at the "utter nonsense argument". At least in my example, someone is done if they don't have eldrazi or Gaea's Blessing.

Um... yes she can, and will if that's what her controller names. To repeat myself... IONA DOES NOT AFFECT HER CONTROLLER.

I think he was referencing if you play her yourself, then she stops you from playing your removal as well ( being white ). Of course, I could be wildly mistaken by how I read that....

This is utter nonsense, to put it lightly. First of all, Teysa+PS is no worse than Mike and Trike or Kiki Conscripts or Teferi Pool.

Also, the arguments about banning DEN have little to do with it's combos. They lie in the fact that it is inherently linear, antisocial, overcentralizing, and boring. Your comparison isn't apples to oranges, it's apples to steak.


I edited this quote to make it more realistic. Because I'd guarantee that non-douchebag, non spike players would do #3 with PS far more than the others combined.


How about "the vast majority of the worst offenders are bad cards that will rarely see play even with PS"? Or "the vast majority of the worst offenders are dick cards with or without PS"? Or the fact that the vast majority of the worst offenders fall into both of those categories? Or the fact that even some of the "kinda bad" offenders also fall into one or more of those categories?

Really, the only cards with whom PS interacts really badly that aren't antisocial by themselves or laughably unplayable are All is Dust, Wash Out, and Teysa. 1 2-colored general, 1 colorless sweeper, and 1 blue semi-sweeper. Dark Mike, Kiki Jiki, Staff of Domination, WGD, Intruder Alarm, Tidespout Tyrant, and even Woodfall Primus all interact with far more cards in game-wrecking fashion. Yet nobody even cares? It almost seems as if PS makes people unable to recognize evil interactions. People don't run Obliterate normally, but if they had access to PS, Anarchy would be the most popular red card ever all of a sudden. It's really really silly.

Meanwhile, unbanning PS would allow it to be run in a lot of decks with non-"top tier" generals like most of the original Ravnica guild champions cycle. Heck, it would be a welcome addition to almost any deck who's general has a useful ability based on color. And it also contributes to random effects in a deck such as Regal Force or Crusade. It even has the nice side effect of possibly nerfing some of an opponent's cards, especially ones such as Swords.

Do I think that unbanning Servant would make it a format staple and the format would be glorious? Of course not. It will turn into a cute niche card that rarely sees play outside of decks with a relevant general (or a very large number of cards that want things to be a certain color for some reason) and spike meta games where the cutthroat combos you describe are already acceptable..... Except it won't show up there very much because most of those combos suck compared to ones that already exist.

There is a HUGE difference between the two.

DEN is degenerate with non-degenerate cards people actually play, in actual decks.
Painter's Servant is degenerate with degenerate cards and with cards nobody currently plays.

DEN can wreak games with stuff as innocuous and widely played as Acidic Slime, Mythic Snake, or Puppeteer Clique, that people include in decks with no evil intent and without even a second thought.
Painter's Servant can wreak games with anti-social cards like Iona, and utterly horrible cards like Deathgrip that nobody will ever play unless they're intending to be evil.

To sum up:
DEN is a tool that tricks good people into doing evil, and really can't ever be used safely.
PS is a tool that evil people will undoubtedly use for evil, but that good people can, and will, use for good.

Oh... and while I hate DEN, and have certainly asked for it be looked at in the past, I don't think it in any way needs to be banned. I was on the fence at one point, but that was because I wasn't sure if people in the non-cutthroat groups were going to catch on to how stupid it was and avoid it like they do Omniscience or if it was gonna be like Prime Time where everyone just kept hurting themselves with it. For the most part it seems to have gone down the avoidance route, so IMHO there isn't a need for a ban.


Narcomoeba goes onto the battlefield. Unearth a Fatestitcher. Flashback Dread Return, getting back Angel of Glory's Rise, which gets back, well a bunch of stuff. Including Azami and Lab Manic. You than win the game.


Colors are irrelevant. Someone who plays the type of combo you're complaining about knows exactly what they're doing and will find something degenerate to play regardless of the banned list. My point is that those players already have access to far more degenerate options.
And anyone who isn't of that mindset? We don't really have to worry about them playing Painter's Servant and Grindstone anymore then we do any other degenerate combo. It's not something you throw in by accident... Grindstone is a terrible, terrible card in commander, and if you're playing it, you know exactly how awful it could be for your opponents to play against. On the off chance someone thinks it's fun (because they built there deck while drunk maybe?), I'll quote myself.



Yes. Yes it is. The fact that a swords to plowshares or rakdos charm counters your "Plague Wind" makes it quite a bit weaker in effect than plague wind, as does the fact that hexproof, shroud, and protection from black OR white also avoids your "Plague Wind." Now, costing 2, it's still better than plague wind, despite those things. But, than, plague wind is not a good card. And costing 2 generic mana isn't nearly as relevant as you seem to be thinking... by the point in the game where Plague Wind is really beneficial, you tend to already have quite a bit of mana at your disposal... And remember, it costs 2 if your have your commander out. If you don't, it costs 5... or more.

If you're seriously going to argue that an under costed sweeper is somehow unfair, maybe commander isn't the format for you.



That's the kind of BS black-and-white argument I was talking about. Making armies of invulnerable creatures is a very popular strategy in commander. Who enjoys it? The person playing it. And the opponent who bounces the memorial and slaughters the incoming army while laughing.
Also, how the heck does Treva gaining oodles of life fall into either of those categories? Or making Jaya Ballard acually useful? Expanding the uses of Savra? Making Ulasht twice as big? Casting artifact creatures with Yeva?
All of those are things people would actually do with Servant that fall into neither of your two categories that you claim are "all PS does." So obviously your argument is faulty at best.

First off, "he" in this case is YOU. YOU WROTE THAT. And secondly, you need to RTFC - Iona, Shield of Emeria. Notice that she says "opponents". If you play her yourself, and name white, you can still cast white spells.

That combo is where I think the dividing line between acceptable and unacceptable uses of PS are. It isn't something that is going to be for everyone, but that interaction is hardly bad for the format as a whole.

The combo takes 3 other white creatures to start and relies on having a pair of x/3 dudes live. It is definitely the sort of thing that goes into a Teysa deck rather than something a Teysa deck is built around.

Everyone knows it's possible to play PS for extra life with Treva or to make Jaya sort of semi-good. That's just not the way it was played and I seriously doubt it's the way it would be played again.

Jaya and Treva would still be way below par. But the degenerate, fun-sucking things would be viable because they are legitimately powerful, so those are the decks you would see far more often.

The degenerate, fun sucking things wouldn't be viable at all. First off, any person who isn't running Obliterate now isn't going to run Anarchy just because PS is legal. Any person who will run degenerate cards with PS is probably already running them anyway. Heck, pretty much all of the possibly viable bad interactions can be duplicated by already legal cards, most of which are better than the PS version anyway.

Those cards aren't powerful at all. Obliterate and Decree of Annihilation and that new giant thingy and all of their friends are all more powerful than a 2-card combo filled with a really weak version of the aforementioned cards and another fragile card that probably won't do anything useful otherwise. Same with Teferi Pool VS Iona Servant. Same with infinite mana Oona versus Servantstone. And pretty much all other 2-card infinite combos, particularly the creature-based ones, are better than that.

Being a Treva player, I have never even considered PS tbh. Having a card in deck that only makes the commander a bit better just doesn't cut the mustard for me. If it is a dead draw on it's own, i don't play it whenever possible, and treva takes some setting up to be brought into play, i usually only cast him once or twice in a game, he either gets played hopefully to start my victory via a couple of turns of combat or to gain me some life, or is brought in to block and I am struggling, his ability is nice but can't always be used making PS a wasted slot IMO, its cute, but not good enough, I am not using noob hammer and that will certainly gain me more life in games than PS would so PS doesn't come close to good enough.

That being said, I don't think PS coming off ban will do anything to the format that isn't already being done, anti social uses still occur with dozens of other cards and so do uses of hardly known cards as well. If people start rocking PS and Iona lock they will quickly find themselves ejected from every game ever after that one time happens, so meh, unabn it and crack on for me

You are really going to take the position that it's not powerful to destroy all permanents for 2RR because it requires PS in play? And it's not powerful to cast Upheaval (which is banned, for those of you taking notes) for 3U?

Until you realize that PS will do powerful things and will ruin games, you are just living in a fantasy world. Just like saying you can't have have fun with PS is nonsense.

So it comes back, as always to this: EDH players cloned and blinked Sylvan Primordial into oblivion. Even when they didn't own any forests. They are perfectly willing to do powerful things even they are not any fun. And the powerful things PS does are, with rare exception, no fun. So what do you really think we are going to see it do?

Holy hell.. relax... And it wasn't me that first mentioned her.. .it was Kaldare. The "he" I was refering too is Kaldare... like I said, I think he (Kaldare) was meaning that if you played her yourself... however, he (Kaldare) could have ment his opponents not being able to play the removal they draw.



But this is a hell of alot more work/ cards then 2 card combo. Not to mention the mana spent to do it. PS + GS = 6 mana ... colorless mana.

Anarchy plus servant isn't any more powerful than jokulhaups. Its still 6 total, and has the trade out of killing walkers and enchantments and being 2 cards.

Hibernation and wash out are different, those seem pretty sickish to me (hibernation seems bad without servant, but washout would be playable for sure in a deck running PS, and of course being blue is a big plus in the combos favor). But being able to replicate a banned card is not the same as being ban-worthy. And being able to ruin games or actually ruining games is also not the same as being ban-worthy. A card would have to ruin a significant number of games in some manner.

Rc thinks PS would do that. Others don't. Any talk of "X is too powerful but Y is perfectly fair " is a load of crap.