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 Post subject: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-11 8:47 am 

Joined: 2015-Mar-11 8:33 am
Age: Egg
I would like the powers that be for EDH Commander rules to review posion once again.
Standard magic was designed to be one on one and each player started with 20 life.
It made sense then to have another damage type (poison) kill on 10 points. When
EDH came along, players start at 40 life. it is a linear extrapolation to have poison
kill at 20 life. We also have 21 accumulated damage from any Commander as lethal.
That is fine also. Can we please officially fix Poison? Thank you.

Jeff Kabelin


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-11 9:39 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
What is your compelling reason for them to do so? We haven't seen Infect since Scars block, and there hasn't been anything come out which makes it any better of a strategy. There are only a few infect cards which are any good (I can think of five offhand), and it is a very fragile strategy. Raising the limit will simply make a minor strategy even less playable.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-11 10:27 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
cryogen wrote:
What is your compelling reason for them to do so? We haven't seen Infect since Scars block, and there hasn't been anything come out which makes it any better of a strategy. There are only a few infect cards which are any good (I can think of five offhand), and it is a very fragile strategy. Raising the limit will simply make a minor strategy even less playable.


I saw it Tuesday! Killed by a Septic Rats.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-11 11:40 pm 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Hey Jeff

We would consider fixing poison if we thought it was broken. The farther away we are from the last time a poison card was released, the more sure we are that taking no action was the right call.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-11 11:41 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
I've kicked around the idea of building BUG infect (helmed by The Mimeoplasm), but the strategy has a few things working against it;
1. You're on your own. Is player A getting out of hand? Did player B just attack him down to 2 life, hoping desperately that someone else will finish the job and prevent him from comboing out? You can't help, because your creatures have infect. You need to find a way to deal him the full 10.
2. Small creatures. By and large, the creatures with infect are small, in order to balance the infect ability. That means your stuff is highly blockable.
3. Reputation. Sit down with a poison deck, and people want you dead.

Poison existed when EDH was conceived, albeit with much less support, and Scars of Mirrodin did not cause the EDH-playing world to implode. There is really no need for a "fix". The only infect cards I see, well, EVER are Blightsteel Colossus, Skittles and Triumph of the Hordes, and even these I've seen only very rarely, either in play or in people's decklists here.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-12 1:03 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
There is actually some argument to be made that the proliferation of good pump spells (I'm looking at you, Become Immense...) has made poison better despite no new Infect cards being printed. It's definitely true in modern, but you also get to play 4 copies of each card, which makes a big difference.

While I don't think we should categorically rule out changing from 10 to some higher number, I don't think we have gotten anywhere close to the tipping point where infect becomes a problem yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-12 9:59 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
There is actually some argument to be made that the proliferation of good pump spells (I'm looking at you, Become Immense...) has made poison better despite no new Infect cards being printed. It's definitely true in modern, but you also get to play 4 copies of each card, which makes a big difference.

While I don't think we should categorically rule out changing from 10 to some higher number, I don't think we have gotten anywhere close to the tipping point where infect becomes a problem yet.

I kinda want to make that deck now


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-12 10:46 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
The only infect cards I see, well, EVER are Blightsteel Colossus, Skittles and Triumph of the Hordes, and even these I've seen only very rarely, either in play or in people's decklists here.
You forgot Tainted Strike - I see that card as a finisher in decks from time to time.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-12 1:09 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Skittles is really the only broken use of infect I've heard of, and as Sid was saying, if you sit down with a skittles deck, I'm not playing with you. People will hate you out or just not play.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-12 2:36 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I've seen grafted Exoskeleton in Voltron a couple times. It worked well. Infect really is a tiny niche right now though.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-12 3:14 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I would be more inclined to have it start at 20 or so and be reduced by an amount for each player or opponent in the game.

I don't think it's a good fix, but it's one I'm willing to try.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-13 9:07 am 
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Joined: 2013-Jan-28 5:35 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Seattle
I killed a man with Putrefax the other day! He's pretty good in Xenagos.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-13 9:44 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Swarm wrote:
I killed a man with Putrefax the other day! He's pretty good in Xenagos.

Did the rest of the table then gang up and kill you?

Poison tends to be good at taking out one person and bad at taking out a table.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-13 2:57 pm 

Joined: 2014-Dec-16 6:04 am
Age: Drake
papa_funk wrote:
Swarm wrote:
I killed a man with Putrefax the other day! He's pretty good in Xenagos.

Did the rest of the table then gang up and kill you?

Poison tends to be good at taking out one person and bad at taking out a table.


It depends how you use it, and what other people are doing. You aren't necessary on your own. The strategy basically creates a narrow band of doing 10 with poison or doing 1 with poison and proliferating 9 times. The degree that other people can proliferate or clone your infect guys allows them to interact with you and keep you from going it alone.

If you are alone, you run a serious risk of hanging 9 on everyone and the first person you choose to go to 10 has to sit around because someone throws a monkey wrench into you getting the 10th on everyone else. This all assumes you are up-front and want people to have fun with infect. If you are running the 'sucker' ones, where you infect one person out of the blue because they didn't know it was a thing until too late, that is more of a social contract thing than a rules thing. People that do that will find another way to win on a technicality than win on the up-and-up.

I've played infect for many years. No one gets sucker punched. I use it more for wither and build from that if it sticks. The key card isn't the one everyone is posting, which are all sucker cards. If you can make Phyrexian Swarmlord work, then you are probably doing infect 'right' in this format.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-13 5:55 pm 
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Joined: 2013-Jan-28 5:35 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Seattle
papa_funk wrote:
Swarm wrote:
I killed a man with Putrefax the other day! He's pretty good in Xenagos.

Did the rest of the table then gang up and kill you?

Poison tends to be good at taking out one person and bad at taking out a table.


They did not, the folks I play with are pretty chill about stuff like poison. The guy I went after had to die before he got his deck online. I ended up dying to a disturbingly large amount of plant tokens later in the game though.


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