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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-20 7:22 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Before I reply, I want to repeat that I don't really think this card "needs" banning, I just know I wouldn't miss it.
Marit Lage wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
How do you "play around it?" Don't let the blue player get to a board state that lets them capitalize on the tempo. Force them to blow it defensively. Copy it. Reduce your curve. Phasing/EoT blinks. Don't overextend. Basically, all the things you should already be striving for with a few specific responses.

This. A thousand times this.

Could either of you elaborate for me? I don't think it's as easy to "play around" Rift as you are making it out to be.

What do you mean by "don't let their board state capitalize on the tempo?" Doesn't any board state give them an advantage over all their opponents' empty boards? So . . . don't let the blue player have any permanents? I mean, you're not wrong, but that's harder to do than you're making it sound.

What exactly does "not overextending" mean in the context of a bounce spell? I know it's generally good not to drop all your threats and have nothing left in your hand to back them up in case of a boardwipe, but in the case of Rift, isn't the player who plays conservatively in exactly the same position after Rift resolves as they would be had they dumped every permanent in their hand onto the field beforehand?

"Copy it." This isn't much of an answer. When someone casts In Garruk's Wake and you have a bunch of goblins and dragons, yeah you can copy it so that they don't have anything either, but you're just trading a card to turn their one-sided sweeper into a "fair" sweeper. Same here. Also, this doesn't take away from my argument that Rift is non-interactive by simply being an instant. It's basically the "you can counter it" argument, except that it includes about 5 good Red cards and some more Blue answers.

"Phasing/EoT blinks" Again, pretty narrow, but yes. This is why my Ghost Council of Orzhova has never been replaced in the past 7 years by another WB Commander.

"Force them to blow it defensively." This one I understand and agree. Attack the blue player with 7 mana untapped before you do anything else with your turn. Even if you want to cast a creature with haste first, or whatever. Just attack first, you'll probably need your mana after. Just be prepared to feel bad when they reveal AEtherize or AEtherspouts instead.

"Reduce your curve" This one I also understand and agree. Yes, this is a Battlecruiser format, but it is still important to have an actual curve, not just ramp + win conditions.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-20 7:42 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
What he's referring to is to use the tools available to your colors. Blue and red can copy it. Blue and white can blink their guys out. Green and black, don't overextend. And to everyone, don't extend and save your spot removal. If they rift, blow up their stuff. Also, if you play a bunch of stuff, they're more likely to spend their Rift if you didn't.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-20 11:35 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
I think the best advice it you know you're facing, or suspect you're facing, Cyclonic Rift is to overextend. Make them use it and use it quickly. Because Intrepid is right - holding things back gains you nothing. This of course assumes they're in mono-blue, and that someone else isn't going to play Wrath of God instead.

If you're worried they'll cast it and then win, control their board. If they only have one or two things to attack with after casting rift, they might gain some tempo since they didn't need to re-cast anything, but the game's probably not over.

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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-20 8:59 pm 
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Joined: 2013-Aug-06 1:27 pm
Age: Drake
I agree with Gath but a lot of people at my LGS think Rift should be banned.

If you're struggling against the player using cyclonic rift I suggest pressuring that player earlier or putting faster cards in your deck.


Last edited by MatthewB on 2016-Feb-20 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-20 9:34 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MatthewB wrote:
I agree with Gath but a lot of people at my LGS think Rift should be banned.

If you're struggling against the player using cyclonic rift I suggest pressuring that player earlier or putting faster cards in your card.

"Hey why are you targeting me all the time even though I haven't done anything yet?"
"Because you're playing blue and that means you'll eventually play Cyclonic Rift."


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-20 9:51 pm 
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Joined: 2013-Aug-06 1:27 pm
Age: Drake
cryogen wrote:
MatthewB wrote:
I agree with Gath but a lot of people at my LGS think Rift should be banned.

If you're struggling against the player using cyclonic rift I suggest pressuring that player earlier or putting faster cards in your card.

"Hey why are you targeting me all the time even though I haven't done anything yet?"
"Because you're playing blue and that means you'll eventually play Cyclonic Rift."


If you see that player as the greatest threat I think it's logical to attack them.

I know some players enjoy diplomacy and will try complaining to stop someone from attacking them. The best way to deal with those types of players is to just kill them.

Ever since I stopped playing blue in EDH the green players at the LGS have really been getting to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-22 12:41 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
intreped wrote:
What do you mean by "don't let their board state capitalize on the tempo?" Doesn't any board state give them an advantage over all their opponents' empty boards?

This is true, but they are spending 7 mana for the tempo gain. If you leave them with a board with a few utility dorks they aren't getting their mana's worth.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-22 3:52 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
intreped wrote:
Could either of you elaborate for me? I don't think it's as easy to "play around" Rift as you are making it out to be.

What do you mean by "don't let their board state capitalize on the tempo?" Doesn't any board state give them an advantage over all their opponents' empty boards? So . . . don't let the blue player have any permanents? I mean, you're not wrong, but that's harder to do than you're making it sound.


There's a large different from EoT rift into swing lethal on table and EoT rift into hit you for 5-10 damage... They can't use it offensively if they have little to gain from doing it.

Quote:
What exactly does "not overextending" mean in the context of a bounce spell? I know it's generally good not to drop all your threats and have nothing left in your hand to back them up in case of a boardwipe, but in the case of Rift, isn't the player who plays conservatively in exactly the same position after Rift resolves as they would be had they dumped every permanent in their hand onto the field beforehand?


You limit the gains of the rift. If you have two threats out instead of five is it even "worth" using? It's a no brainer to give the blue player so much advantage by bouncing 25 mana from each player to hand. It's a lot harder when they're only getting 10 mana per player. If you're swinging lethal it's obviously being cast. If you're swinging 8 it's probably better to just take 8 or chump.

Quote:
"Copy it." This isn't much of an answer. When someone casts In Garruk's Wake and you have a bunch of goblins and dragons, yeah you can copy it so that they don't have anything either, but you're just trading a card to turn their one-sided sweeper into a "fair" sweeper. Same here. Also, this doesn't take away from my argument that Rift is non-interactive by simply being an instant. It's basically the "you can counter it" argument, except that it includes about 5 good Red cards and some more Blue answers.


You may still get hit by it but you still completely ruin their plans. Now they have to restart as well instead of "going off" on their turn. Rout and Fated Retribution are instant speed too. Rally the Ancestors and Twilight's Call are instant speed too. Instant speed removal or tricks are available to anyone.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-22 6:05 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
cryogen wrote:
MatthewB wrote:
I agree with Gath but a lot of people at my LGS think Rift should be banned.

If you're struggling against the player using cyclonic rift I suggest pressuring that player earlier or putting faster cards in your card.

"Hey why are you targeting me all the time even though I haven't done anything yet?"
"Because you're playing blue and that means you'll eventually play Cyclonic Rift."


to be fair if I think someone's holding a boardwipe I'd be more inclined to attack them anyway so they'll blow it and I can get back to rebuilding without throwing away more resources that I have to.

MatthewB wrote:

Ever since I stopped playing blue in EDH the green players at the LGS have really been getting to me.


thats because people who play mono green all use 80% of the same cards and think oneshotting people out of nowhere with a trampling army is somehow super original because theyve never seen combo before...

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We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-22 9:30 am 
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Joined: 2013-Aug-06 1:27 pm
Age: Drake
Gath Immortal wrote:
thats because people who play mono green all use 80% of the same cards and think oneshotting people out of nowhere with a trampling army is somehow super original because theyve never seen combo before...


I was referring to how I've become less diplomatic.

A lot of players at the LGS are guilty of thinking a deck is only combo if it has an infinite combo in it. I've been winning a lot of games the last few months using fog or safe passage. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-22 6:35 pm 
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Joined: 2013-May-29 9:57 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Atlanta, GA
I don't like Cyclonic Rift. I think it's a boring and anticlimactic way to end the game, and I'm tired of every deck and their mother slotting it in. That being said, I don't think it needs to go.

It all really comes down to momentum. I've seen Cyclonic Rift make a player who was winning guarantee the win, I've seen it turn stalemates into a win, and I've seen it stop another player from winning, but it doesn't really win the game by itself. You have to have the board set up in just a way that you could win with what you have, provided your opponents have no blockers/obnoxious enchantments/etc. Drop it with an empty or lackluster board and its just Evacuation. It force-multiplies momentum you already have, but it doesn't generate any for you by itself. It is the Nemesor Zandrekh of EDH. The Castellan Creed of Commander, as it were.

If anything, it deserves watching for ubiquity rather than power. The versatility of its Overload ability means that any deck that can run it is going to, and there aren't going to be many times where you're staring it down in your hand wishing that it was something else. Still, it doesn't force players to run certain cards or certain decks devoted to the possibility that maybe their opponent will drop it, so I don't think it holds up all that well on the ubiquity front either.

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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-11 10:44 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
It's pretty situational, unless you are the type that just loops it to be a douche.
Example: I had Cyclonic Rift, Behold the Beyond and Zealous Conscripts in hand in a four-player pod. I couldn't win because the Titania player had Glacial Chasm, so I asked the Gitrog player to Wasetland it. Cast BtB, got Living Death, Mind Twist, Arcane Denial and won on the spot. If I had cast Rift I just would have caused Titania to draw more cards and get more tokens, Zedruu to get more stuff, etc.

I see it as an Evacuation + Hurky's Recall most times. Really good, but not super broken.

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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-13 11:26 am 

Joined: 2011-Jul-15 6:33 pm
Age: Drake
Casting Cyclonic Rift into a Wheel of Fortune has gotten me out of soooooo many jams.

But ban? I dunno. What do we have to compare it to?

Fated Retribution: Seven mana, instant. Hits all creatures and planeswalkers, destroys.
Akroma's Vengeance: 6 mana, sorcery. Hits all creatures, artifacts and lands, destroys. Has an alternate 'cost' for a small effect, in this case cycling for a card.
Rout: "7 mana Instant" Hits all creatures, destroys. Can be played for 5 for as well.
Martial Coup: When cast for 7 total mana, it hits all creatures but gives you a board presence, destroys.
Decree of Annihilation 7 mana when cycled. Instant speed. Destroys all lands. It's only really similar insofar as the game will drastically change when it resolves.

After looking for those, I'd say this: None of these cards is anywhere close to banworthy, so if Cyclonic Rift is actually crossing the line, it's just barely squeaking across.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-13 6:26 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Magnetic North wrote:
Casting Cyclonic Rift into a Wheel of Fortune has gotten me out of soooooo many jams.

But ban? I dunno. What do we have to compare it to?

Fated Retribution: Seven mana, instant. Hits all creatures and planeswalkers, destroys.
Akroma's Vengeance: 6 mana, sorcery. Hits all creatures, artifacts and lands, destroys. Has an alternate 'cost' for a small effect, in this case cycling for a card.
Rout: "7 mana Instant" Hits all creatures, destroys. Can be played for 5 for as well.
Martial Coup: When cast for 7 total mana, it hits all creatures but gives you a board presence, destroys.
Decree of Annihilation 7 mana when cycled. Instant speed. Destroys all lands. It's only really similar insofar as the game will drastically change when it resolves.

After looking for those, I'd say this: None of these cards is anywhere close to banworthy, so if Cyclonic Rift is actually crossing the line, it's just barely squeaking across.


I don't think this is a good comparison, what really annoys people is that Cyclonic Rift is one sided, and that it's at instant speed. Apart from that, the mana cost makes it easily castable in any deck that contains blue.

I'm not a fan, I refuse to play it myself, and I always hold something back when there's a deck on the table that uses it. But that's exactly what annoys me, the very possibility of a player having CR has a hugh influence on my game, much more than any other card I an think of off the top of my head.

I mean, I don't like Tooth and Nail either, but the chance that someone might play it doesn't really effects the way I'm playing myself.

The biggest problem with CR, as often, is not the card itself but the way it is (over-) used. People cast it whenever they draw it, just to slightly improve their board position or to avoid taking 10 damage from an attack. It ends games, sure, but just as often it just slows games down.

And extra douche credits for the guys who think it's cute to keep recurring it... Yeah, I know, there are answers and there's graveyard hate, but really, what's the point of trying to build a nice theme deck if you're going to put 20-30 answers to each possible annoying card in each deck?


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-14 1:32 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Proper use of board wipes are always one sided or at least heavily skewed in your favor... No one wipes the board when they're ahead. There are enough options at this point that every wipe you play can give you an advantage. Playing Voltron? Play one that leaves a single creature. Playing big creatures? Play one that gives -x/-x. Playing Flyers? Play Earthquakes. Playing from the yard? Living Death with a sac outlet... Playing Avacyn? Nev's Disk? Dragons? Crux of Fate.

Rift is a versatile removal spell because it can be used on a single problem permanent, it can reset everyone but you to press an advantage or it can save your ass to give you some time. Does that make it better than the other instant speed answers he showed? Situationally. Are any of them ban worthy? No.


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