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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-29 11:03 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
What stopped him from being stolen or cloned?

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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-29 11:44 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
crokaycete wrote:
Segrus wrote:
Turn 1: Mana Crypt-->Sol Ring-->Metalworker
Turn 2: Activate Metal Worker, reveal Lion's Eye Diamond, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, and Basalt Monolith-->cast hand-->cast Kozilek, the Great Distortion-->replenish hand
Ok. Sure. If someone is playing 32 lands, 67 mana rocks, and Kozilek, they're probably going to have some strong opening hands. Then look like total morons when someone casts Temporal Isolation.

Segrus wrote:
I'd have to see the deck too, but if I saw a deck containing all of these cards I'd initially be a little concerned about what the gameplay is like...it's just prudent.

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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-29 12:25 pm 
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Joined: 2013-May-29 9:57 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Atlanta, GA
MRHblue wrote:
What stopped him from being stolen or cloned?

For one, you can cook a 4-drop and counter the bejesus out of it. For another, not having indestructible and missing out on his cast trigger made him a much less attractive target. Not being indestructible also makes him easier to deal with when he starts walking around the board, since you can just drop an Unstable Obelisk or a Nev's Disk on his head. Or hell, once everyone starts getting a copy, a boardwipe is usually inevitable.

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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-29 8:36 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Orlando, Florida
Zirilan of the Claw wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
What stopped him from being stolen or cloned?

For one, you can cook a 4-drop and counter the bejesus out of it. For another, not having indestructible and missing out on his cast trigger made him a much less attractive target. Not being indestructible also makes him easier to deal with when he starts walking around the board, since you can just drop an Unstable Obelisk or a Nev's Disk on his head. Or hell, once everyone starts getting a copy, a boardwipe is usually inevitable.
Pretty much this when it comes to the new Cosi. It's pretty easy to get 3, 4, 5, and 6 drops into the deck to stop relevant clone/steal effects.

All in all, Kozilek isn't hard to deal with. His ability to counter spells is highly dependent on what you get with that first draw, and he can't keep it up in a multiplayer environment to be considered oppressive. If you're having an issue, it's probably because he's playing him conservatively, saving a counterspell for something that'll kill or maim him.

However, that's playing smart, not a card being degenerate. Also, for your example with mana rocks, perhaps you should have an example that isn't 1 in 10,000. Might be a bit more realistic.


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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-30 10:08 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
What was 1 in 10,000?

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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-30 10:27 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Kozilek, the Great Distortion (henceforth, Special K) is easily the least obnoxious of all the in-print legendary eldrazi. I'd even say it's less obnoxious than some of the NON-legendary eldrazi, such as It That Betrays or Void Winnower.

Special K is not indestructible. It has no built-in shroud or protection. It has menace, which is an easily beatable form of evasion, and in EDH you'll often have 2 creatures that can block it and kill it, with a decent chance you only lose one of the two in the process. It can counter spells IF the player happens to have a spell of that CMC in hand. AND, unlike every other titan, it has no obnoxious as crap attack trigger.

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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-30 10:42 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Orlando, Florida
MRHblue wrote:
What was 1 in 10,000?

Sorry, that was directed at Segrus. I was tired when I posted that. He mentioned the god hand for an easy Kozilek, but that applies to every easy to cast legendary creature. Having the hand he described would be basically impossible.


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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-30 11:44 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Marit Lage wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
What was 1 in 10,000?

Sorry, that was directed at Segrus. I was tired when I posted that. He mentioned the god hand for an easy Kozilek, but that applies to every easy to cast legendary creature. Having the hand he described would be basically impossible.

Did everyone miss the last part of that comment of mine?

Yeah, I don't actually honestly believe a hand like that is likely to come up at all. However, when I see a deck containing a decent portion of traditionally powerful cards I'm going to keep a watchful eye on it. Don't you?

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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-May-01 9:22 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Orlando, Florida
Segrus wrote:
Did everyone miss the last part of that comment of mine?

Yeah, I don't actually honestly believe a hand like that is likely to come up at all. However, when I see a deck containing a decent portion of traditionally powerful cards I'm going to keep a watchful eye on it. Don't you?

Isn't that just playing commander in general, and not tied to Kozilek in particular? Every color has powerful spells you need to watch for, not just the Artifact Spam decks. It's not like Kozilek has any real synergy with anything besides ramp anyway. He's no Arcum Dagsson or Daretti, or even Karn. If anything, playing a colorless deck with a 10 mana commander curtails a lot of degenerate things, as you don't have the tools to abuse them.


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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-May-01 9:30 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Marit Lage wrote:
Isn't that just playing commander in general, and not tied to Kozilek in particular?

Yes. And since Segrus was talking about commander in general and not Kozilek specifically, he was making a reasonable point.

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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-May-01 1:20 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Orlando, Florida
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Marit Lage wrote:
Isn't that just playing commander in general, and not tied to Kozilek in particular?

Yes. And since Segrus was talking about commander in general and not Kozilek specifically, he was making a reasonable point.

Reasonable or not, aren't we talking about Kozilek's power level?


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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-May-01 2:53 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Marit Lage wrote:
Reasonable or not, aren't we talking about Kozilek's power level?

Yes, we are, but I was also speaking generally. I was speaking generally, and proving a point about Newzolek simultaneously:
  • Speaking generally, if I see a bunch of traditionally strong cards in a deck, I'm going to be concerned about the deck's power level.
  • If there's only a few strong cards in a deck, I'm not going to be very concerned about it.
  • Therefore, if it takes many other powerful cards in a Kozilek, the Great Distortion deck to be concerning, then I must not be concerned about the Newzolek.
  • In conclusion, Newzolek is not a problem. (To me at least.)

I don't think I can be any more clear.

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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-May-02 1:56 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Segrus wrote:
  • Speaking generally, if I see a bunch of traditionally strong cards in a deck, I'm going to be concerned about the deck's power level.
  • If there's only a few strong cards in a deck, I'm not going to be very concerned about it.


I think this is a trap... Many of my strongest decks were built with some of my weakest cards. I have personally dominated an EDH tournament and league with a sub $50 Hakim, Loreweaver deck just to rub it in the face of a guy rocking a $3k+ Zur deck. Similarly my Ob Nixilis, the Fallen deck was extremely brutal even though it was probably 75% commons/uncommons compared to most my other decks being probably 75% rares.

This is a format to show off your collection and play with your favorite cards... that doesn't necessarily make those powerful cards the most efficient or degenerate.


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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-May-02 2:36 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Epsilon wrote:
Segrus wrote:
  • Speaking generally, if I see a bunch of traditionally strong cards in a deck, I'm going to be concerned about the deck's power level.
  • If there's only a few strong cards in a deck, I'm not going to be very concerned about it.


I think this is a trap... Many of my strongest decks were built with some of my weakest cards. I have personally dominated an EDH tournament and league with a sub $50 Hakim, Loreweaver deck just to rub it in the face of a guy rocking a $3k+ Zur deck. Similarly my Ob Nixilis, the Fallen deck was extremely brutal even though it was probably 75% commons/uncommons compared to most my other decks being probably 75% rares.

This is a format to show off your collection and play with your favorite cards... that doesn't necessarily make those powerful cards the most efficient or degenerate.

Perhaps if I added the word "initially," just as I used in my first post which has already been forgotten. Of course, there's going to be other criteria involved in evaluating decks. If I see a deck with all the road signs pointing to Combo City, I'm rightly going to be concerned even if those signs aren't expensive cards. My point isn't less valid due to this.

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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-May-02 5:47 am 

Joined: 2016-Apr-27 5:22 am
Age: Hatchling
Thank you everyone for your perspective and discussion thus far. I am quite happy to find as many replies to this as there are.

As mentioned, when a card is oppressive when used with other very powerful cards, the card itself is not necessarily oppressive. I have had from the beginning the suspicion that my problems with Kozi are really just amplified by the stars aligning in its favor. Perhaps my disdain is really just shell shock from seeing Kozi out-oppress two decks designed to oppress everyone (horrible game with little fun for anyone and totally not a match up that will be repeated).

The potential to oppress is not oppression and doesn't make banning an eventuality. I do thank everyone for reminding me of this.

I guess the oppression is mainly from clever deck building after all, but its hard to describe how...... surprising the ramp and hand advantage the individual deck has, and I still feel there is a disconnect between how is power looks and how it plays. It's weird, we used to (and still kinda do) joke to the player that he didn't know how to counter spells and now he has this colorless deck that I find more difficult to deal with then most of the Mono-blue "NO!" I've played against.


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