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 Post subject: Re: My Thoughts: Prophet of Kruphix, Emrakul, Sorin Markov+ more
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 9:02 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
RaiRai wrote:
To be honest, I see why some people are butthurt about her


Just some friendly advice: I stopped reading at this point.


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 Post subject: Re: My Thoughts: Prophet of Kruphix, Emrakul, Sorin Markov+ more
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 9:50 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
papa_funk wrote:
RaiRai wrote:
To be honest, I see why some people are butthurt about her


Just some friendly advice: I stopped reading at this point.


Ditto.

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 Post subject: Re: My Thoughts: Prophet of Kruphix, Emrakul, Sorin Markov+ more
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 9:53 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
papa_funk wrote:
RaiRai wrote:
To be honest, I see why some people are butthurt about her

Just some friendly advice: I stopped reading at this point.

Sheldon wrote:
Ditto.


RaiRai, just so you know (you're new, so you may not know this), papa_funk and Sheldon are both Rules Committee members and the people you want to be influencing with your requests; if they really stopped reading at that point (and I believe they did) you won't have been able to make your points.

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"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: My Thoughts: Prophet of Kruphix, Emrakul, Sorin Markov+ more
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 10:45 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I don't think he lived through the flame-wall he brought on himself.

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niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: My Thoughts: Prophet of Kruphix, Emrakul, Sorin Markov+ more
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 12:10 pm 
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Joined: 2016-May-16 12:03 pm
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Location: The Blind Eternities
I know some of my thoughts are a little far out there but when you play against some of these cards in real life and online, they can be overwhelming in a casual format, though for some I suggested underwhelming.

Sorin Markov, The Planeswalker, wih the -3 ability opponents life becomes 10 is gamebreaking early on and turns a 20 to 30 turn game then makes only ten. Its nonsense and it promotes an anti-social play, especially due to its ability to change the pace of game drastically. Kaalia of the vast, despite her being the community favorite, is drastically overpowered compared to most commanders, especially for a 4 cmc, and considering most games with her consist T1: Play Land, Sol Ring, then Swiftfoot boots, T2: Land, Colorful mana rock/keyrune, use left mana from sol ring, Boom Kaalia, T3:Land, Attach swiftboots to Kaaalia, Attack then summon more threatening nonsense like Master of Cruelties in attack mode, pretty much that player loses the game.

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 Post subject: Re: My Thoughts: Prophet of Kruphix, Emrakul, Sorin Markov+ more
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 12:20 pm 
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RaiRai wrote:
Sorin Markov, The Planeswalker, wih the -3 ability opponents life becomes 10 is gamebreaking early on and turns a 20 to 30 turn game then makes only ten. Its nonsense and it promotes an anti-social play, especially due to its ability to change the pace of game drastically. Kaalia of the vast, despite her being the community favorite, is drastically overpowered compared to most commanders, especially for a 4 cmc, and considering most games with her consist T1: Play Land, Sol Ring, then Swiftfoot boots, T2: Land, Colorful mana rock/keyrune, use left mana from sol ring, Boom Kaalia, T3:Land, Attach swiftboots to Kaaalia, Attack then summon more threatening nonsense like Master of Cruelties in attack mode, pretty much that player loses the game.

We all know what Kaalia is capable of, especially paired with Master of Cruelties. However, you've just spelled out seven of the starting ten cards in those three turns. This is what's known as "Magical Christmas Land" and doesn't happen with enough regularity to actually worry about. (Disclaimer: I have a Kaalia deck. No, it doesn't have Master of Cruelties in it. I've played.... 20?... games with the deck and have attacked with Kaalia on Turn 3 exactly zero times. I've attacked on Turn 4 maybe 5 times.)

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"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: My Thoughts: Prophet of Kruphix, Emrakul, Sorin Markov+ more
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 12:54 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I've played against Kaalia plenty. She's tough, no doubt. But she is only as good as the creatures she cheats out. I've seen her strike out; I've seen her hit homers. I've seen many seemingly crippling board states demolished by a well placed Wrath. One of the best ways to throw her off her game is simply to block her - she's not fat, and the Commander tax adds up quickly. Price her off the board; you can deal with those pesky demons later.

As for Sorin Markov, I've never played with or against that version. No doubt that version's -3 is rough. But he suffers the same disadvantages of all PWs; he's a soft target that needs to be in play for several turns for full effect, and loyalty abilities are played as sorceries. Sorin lasting three rounds as you advertise your intent to Mindslave is unlikely, just as getting away with his -3 without major retaliation.

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 Post subject: Re: My Thoughts: Prophet of Kruphix, Emrakul, Sorin Markov+ more
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 2:17 pm 
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
I've played against Kaalia plenty. She's tough, no doubt. But she is only as good as the creatures she cheats out. I've seen her strike out; I've seen her hit homers. I've seen many seemingly crippling board states demolished by a well placed Wrath. One of the best ways to throw her off her game is simply to block her - she's not fat, and the Commander tax adds up quickly. Price her off the board; you can deal with those pesky demons later.

As for Sorin Markov, I've never played with or against that version. No doubt that version's -3 is rough. But he suffers the same disadvantages of all PWs; he's a soft target that needs to be in play for several turns for full effect, and loyalty abilities are played as sorceries. Sorin lasting three rounds as you advertise your intent to Mindslave is unlikely, just as getting away with his -3 without major retaliation.


The thing is that she craps out stuff that is next to impossible to beat especially combined with Angels and other stuff before most players even have a large creature to contend with her. The only thing to really counter her early on is Grafdigger's cage but thats a given if you even draw it

That Version of sorin is quite he pain because he starts with 3 loyalty and most people cast him just for his ability to reduce a player to 10 life without any hesistation then next thing you know it, he is chilling in a graveyard.

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Call from Eternity
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 Post subject: Re: My Thoughts: Prophet of Kruphix, Emrakul, Sorin Markov+ more
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 2:45 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Honestly my Mayael, the Anima deck is much more proficient at spitting out big fat fatties than my Kaalia deck is. Not requiring an attack step is HUGE. Also, in before "Kaalia costs 4 and Mayael's activation costs 6"; Mayael has green in her colour identity. Typically I'm activating Mayael turn 5, the same time I'm attacking with Kaalia.

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: My Thoughts: Prophet of Kruphix, Emrakul, Sorin Markov+ more
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 3:06 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
RaiRai wrote:
I know some of my thoughts are a little far out there but when you play against some of these cards in real life and online, they can be overwhelming in a casual format

So... you think Emrakul wouldn't be overwhelming? Freaking EMRAKUL? Clearly you were not playing EDH when it was legal. They had to officially change what the acronym stood for to Emrakul Dropping Hellscape. That steaming mound of awful was everywhere. All of the no to this incredibly ill-advised idea.

Same goes for SyPrime. If you think "Kaalia made a big thing come into play" is bad, wait til someone chain-blinks or chain-sac-reanimates a Sylvan Primordial at your table. Remember when you had lands? Those were good days, weren't they?

RaiRai wrote:
Kaalia of the vast, despite her being the community favorite

Community favorite? What community?

RaiRai wrote:
That Version of sorin is quite he pain because he starts with 3 loyalty and most people cast him just for his ability to reduce a player to 10 life without any hesistation then next thing you know it, he is chilling in a graveyard.

Original Sorin is indeed typically read as;
Quote:
Sorin Markov - 3BBB
Sorcery
Target player's life total becomes 10


But you didn't even mention Magister Sphinx, which is far, far more powerful, as it;
A: Can be cheated out more easily
B: Can be recurred more easily
C: Can attack for 5.

Getting set to 10 can be frustrating, but I can tell you from several personal experiences that it's not automatic game-over.

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 Post subject: Re: My Thoughts: Prophet of Kruphix, Emrakul, Sorin Markov+ more
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 3:12 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
Viperion wrote:
Honestly my Mayael, the Anima deck is much more proficient at spitting out big fat fatties than my Kaalia deck is. Not requiring an attack step is HUGE. Also, in before "Kaalia costs 4 and Mayael's activation costs 6"; Mayael has green in her colour identity. Typically I'm activating Mayael turn 5, the same time I'm attacking with Kaalia.

Exactly. Combat commanders are usually stuff like Zur the Enchanter, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Kozilek, the Great Distortion, and Uril, the Miststalker. Kaalia has a nifty little trick, but her ability to cheat out permanents is mitigated by the fact that she's a 2/2, and has to use combat to use it. If we're going by power and lethality of her abilities, Arcum Dagsson easily gets a degenerate board state consistently and quickly, and Bruna, Light of Alabaster can go from being a 5/5 to lethal in one combat. In short, not even remotely an issue.

RaiRai, play more spot removal. Seriously. Or counterspells. Or both. Honestly, Magister Sphinx is more obnoxious than Sorin. He's a card type that easy to reanimate, copy, and search for, and can be cheated into play over and over again. Honestly, you're just whining over cards that you don't like. Unfortunately for you, this is Magic: the Gathering. Part of the whole point of playing it, variant format or not, is to kill your opponents. That means playing cards your opponents don't like.


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 Post subject: Re: My Thoughts: Prophet of Kruphix, Emrakul, Sorin Markov+ more
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 3:27 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-18 11:59 am
Age: Elder Dragon
So Rairai, welcome to the commander forums.

Please, before you decide to become a burden regular to the commander community, I can see you've given a LOT of time and effort to your card choices, for your post and have read the first page of this forum and joined in the discussions there, (which go over several of your card choices in depth and detail) and have read the ban announcements that cover the cards, as well as the ban list philosophy, I will reciprocate in kind and provide the same amount of time and effort that you have, it's only fair to treat others as we like to be treated, especially when we all engage in worth while discussion in earnest.

That said, I think the response can be best summed up by replacing card in your orginal post with one of the following:

Mindslaver, Forbid and Magister of Worth

If you'll figure out which of those three cards above deserve to be banned, I think we'll all be able to agree and sleep better at night.


I apologize for the tone and shortness of the message, I had a much longer one written, but my browser decided to crash, so I left in all the important bits I could remember.

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 Post subject: Re: My Thoughts: Prophet of Kruphix, Emrakul, Sorin Markov+ more
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 4:32 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The answer to the above post is Forbid. GOD I hate that card

;)

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: My Thoughts: Prophet of Kruphix, Emrakul, Sorin Markov+ more
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 5:03 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Honestly, as someone who pilots not only a Kaalia deck but who also plays EDH at both the casual and hyper competitive ends of the spectrum... She isn't even CLOSE to banworthy. Going off sheer power as a commander, there are plenty who far outclass her, starting with Meren of Clan Nel Toth. Easily the single most broken thing that competitive EDH has ever seen, especially after the removal of Partial Paris made all but the very best combo decks virtually unusable. Other great generals that deserve the ban hammer far more than Kaalia ever will are Animar, Derevi, Daretti, Yisan, Gitrog, Edric, Zur, Brago, Jalira, Shattergang Bros, GAAIV, Sisay, and Sidisi. And yet I would argue that there isn't even a good argument to ban any of them (except MAYBE Derevi), largely because the banlist isn't supposed to regulate power level like the banlist of other formats.


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 Post subject: Re: My Thoughts: Prophet of Kruphix, Emrakul, Sorin Markov+ more
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 9:14 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid wrote:
So... you think Emrakul wouldn't be overwhelming? Freaking EMRAKUL? Clearly you were not playing EDH when it was legal. They had to officially change what the acronym stood for to Emrakul Dropping Hellscape.


:lol:

In all seriousness, ^ that.

So, uh, Sorin. I'm just going to point out that even if Sorin is ramped out early, and outside of mono-black that's unusual to say the least, going to 10 life =/= dead. Especially if a group prefers people not to be chilling with nothing to do for an hour. If you don't play lifegain, fogs, or other ways of protecting yourself, yes you're probably not winning that game. But you still might, and to be honest those are things people should probably be playing more of anyway. Sorin also has legitimate tactical uses for dealing with heavy lifegain decks- he was popular in my meta for an extended period due to both Oloro and Trostani being in it, and the decks in question being led by Commanders who couldn't 21 them.

As for Kaalia...

RaiRai wrote:
Kaalia of the vast, despite her being the community favorite, is drastically overpowered compared to most commanders, especially for a 4 cmc, and considering most games with her consist of T1: Play Land, Sol Ring, then Swiftfoot boots, T2: Land, Colorful mana rock/keyrune, use left mana from sol ring, Boom Kaalia, T3:Land, Attach swiftboots to Kaaalia, Attack then summon more threatening nonsense like Master of Cruelties in attack mode, pretty much that player loses the game.


If this happens consistently, your Kaalia player is a cheat. I suggest you shuffle their deck yourself next time.

Yes, the worse case of Kaalia you describe sucks- for one player. But the worst case of a lot of other generals is considerably worse than that (fancy the whole table dead by T5? Krenko and Azami can make it happen), and they definitely aren't banworthy.

RaiRai wrote:
The thing is that she craps out stuff that is next to impossible to beat especially combined with Angels and other stuff before most players even have a large creature to contend with her. The only thing to really counter her early on is Grafdigger's Cage


Uh...Grafdigger's Cage doesn't stop Kaalia. The creatures are dropped from hand, not graveyard or library.

What things does she drop that are impossible to beat? Be more specific. You mentioned Avacyn earlier, which is resilient but far from impossible to interact with.

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Daretti, Scrap Savant (Red Artefacts).
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