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 Post subject: Re: Ban Suggestion: Reprocussion, Burgeoning, and Awakening
AgePosted: 2016-May-25 3:10 pm 
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Joined: 2013-Aug-06 1:27 pm
Age: Drake
Burgeoning is very strong in Blue/Green decks that have a lot of draw power. I don’t think those decks are fun to play against so I see Burgeoning in the same light as stax and combo cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban Suggestion: Reprocussion, Burgeoning, and Awakening
AgePosted: 2016-May-26 1:33 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I much prefer Exploration, which does what it does consistently, and doesn't rely on your opponents to do something...

Agreed. It is also synergistic with Horn of Greed.

Basically I feel like Burgeoning is a 1 mana Summer Bloom. I have decks where I run it, but they get Exploration first.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban Suggestion: Reprocussion, Burgeoning, and Awakening
AgePosted: 2016-May-26 1:42 am 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Don't be condescending, everyone has the right to suggest bans, especially when time is taken to elaborate what they think is wrong with the cards. This is Ummerica!

Rairai, none of these cards are banworthy right now. None of them has any built in protection, none accidentally ruin games, none of them are even that powerful IMO...

Repercussion needs select cards as Blasphemous Act to form an unreliable combo. This is both easily disrupted and you could end up hurting yourself as much as any opponent.

Awakening is argueably a slightly better/worse Seedborn Muse. How is this broken?

Burgeoning is very useful in an opening hand, but often a dead card later on. Sol Ring is way better, and also not banworthy.

There are lots of cards that (can) have a huge impact on the game, but that's the cream topping of commander. Ban all these, and we're playing 99 card Pauper all the time.

You have suggested quite a list of cards for banning now, I assume these all hit you in the face the last few weeks. Instead of looking for suppport for bans, you should be looking for answers to these cards, I'm sure you'll find plenty.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban Suggestion: Reprocussion, Burgeoning, and Awakening
AgePosted: 2016-May-26 2:39 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
RaiRai: Your stance of "hey, this needs to be banned" doesn't work well. It's apparent many people here have more experience in the format than you, and when your threads you create are all just "Hey, ban these bunch of cards" it feels like you're saying that the sky is falling (and implying that we're not paying attention and are unaware of the effects of these cards on the game/format.)

A better stance for the next thread you do would likely be "Hey, last session these bunches of cards seemed to ruin/run-away-with the game ... any suggestions on how to manage/deal with these cards?"

I had someone locally suggest a card for banning one time, and we instead talked about it, and I mentioned a few ways to play around the card -- and that player went away with learning more about how the game works and was no longer worried about the power level of that card.

With that said, lets take a look at the cards you listed this time and see how we evaluate them so you can either learn, or we can have a nice debate (instead of people just potentially making fun of you or something.)

Repercussion: Yep, this is certainly a card that can alter how the game plays out once it's in play. Beyond the "combo" you mention of dealing lots of damage to all creatures, it alters attacking and blocking decisions. However -- it is an enchantment that doesn't have any built in protection at all -- so any enchantment removal will deal with it.

As you may learn from playing this format, enchantments and artifacts will be played, and they will be powerful. It's always a good idea to have some amount of removal for these card types in your deck. You can range from simple pinpoint removal, to mass removal -- depending on your deck and how much of that card type you are using (for example, a white-weenie deck that uses equipment probably isn't going to want much mass-artifact removal, but could probably be fine with mass-enchantment removal.)

Burgeoning: As has been mentioned already in this thread -- it's an early bomb... but late game, it's less impressive to draw. Typically this format is intended to be played multiplayer, so if you end up with someone who drops this turn 1, then in a 4 player game, that should likely tilt the goals of the other 3 players to target that one player for a bit until on-board power is back to being roughly balanced between that one player and the others. Instead of getting beat on by that one player, convince the other players you are playing with to help you target that one player for a bit for getting that kind of a power boost that early.

Awakening: This is nice - but not back-breakingly powerful. See my notes on Repercussion about having enchantment removal.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban Suggestion: Reprocussion, Burgeoning, and Awakening
AgePosted: 2016-May-26 4:21 am 
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Joined: 2013-May-29 9:57 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Atlanta, GA
Again, in all fairness: yeah, no. Not really.

Repercussion is strong, sure, but it's also VERY niche and the symmetry on it will ruin you every few games. I run it and Blasphemous Acts in my red Voltron deck, and I think I've only ever pulled that combo off once (and even then, winning with it was VERY reliant on the current boardstate and the earlier plays of my opponents). More often, it just acts as another copy of Bedlam. Also, aside from Acts, there aren't that many other cards that explode with it unless you pour roughly half a million mana into them, and I don't know anyone who's that desperate to start running Into the Maw of Hell in their decks.

Awakening is symmetrical. That symmetry does a very good job of keeping it in check. Half the reason cards like Unwinding Clock and Seedborn Muse are so backbreaking is that they usually put in all their work when your opponents lack the ability to respond to your plays. Awakening negates that. Actually, Awakening might be an effective counter for those strategies, if you can make it work.

Burgeoning, as mentioned, has the same problem that cards like Sol Ring do: it has awful issues with scaling as the game goes on. One thing I joke about a lot is how some of the players in my group get mad when Thada Adel hits them and steals their Sol Ring. I will joke that since it was halfway through their deck, it wasn't going to do them any good anyway, and Thada probably did them a favor by stealing it. Burgeoning is similar: great early, but can be a dead draw later. Also, unlike Exploration or Oracle of Mul Daya, it depends on your opponents to play extra lands. It isn't much fun to do, but they can play around that.

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 Post subject: Re: Ban Suggestion: Reprocussion, Burgeoning, and Awakening
AgePosted: 2016-May-26 5:18 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Zirilan of the Claw wrote:
More often, it just acts as another copy of Bedlam. Also, aside from Acts, there aren't that many other cards that explode with it unless you pour roughly half a million mana into them
I'm assuming you mean stuff like Fireball and Comet Storm? Keep in mind there are things like Chain Reaction and Starstorm which can do a fair bit of damage (as you say, depending on board state) with small (or smaller) amounts of damage.

My brother loved combining Repercussion with AEther Flash and then giving people tokens with Forbidden Orchard (this was not in EDH, so he could run 4 copies of each.)


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 Post subject: Re: Ban Suggestion: Reprocussion, Burgeoning, and Awakening
AgePosted: 2016-May-26 7:40 am 
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Joined: 2016-May-16 12:03 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: The Blind Eternities
Ehh, I mainly suggest certain cards to be banned based on CMC, what kind of board state they create and the reaction of other players, and what kind of shenanigans they enable/prevent.

Repercussion I am more serious about banning because as mentioned before, someone can easily force someone to spawn a metric ton of tokens then bolt them for one each. I would prefer this to be banned in multiplayer than duel commander to be fair.

Awakening and Burgeoning I'm less serious about cause they on an Alert scale they trigger a yellow alert that this guy is up to something when its played.

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 Post subject: Re: Ban Suggestion: Reprocussion, Burgeoning, and Awakening
AgePosted: 2016-May-26 8:14 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
RaiRai wrote:
Ehh, I mainly suggest certain cards to be banned based on CMC, what kind of board state they create and the reaction of other players, and what kind of shenanigans they enable/prevent.

Repercussion I am more serious about banning because as mentioned before, someone can easily force someone to spawn a metric ton of tokens then bolt them for one each. I would prefer this to be banned in multiplayer than duel commander to be fair.

Awakening and Burgeoning I'm less serious about cause they on an Alert scale they trigger a yellow alert that this guy is up to something when its played.


Someone can easily spawn a "metric ton" of tokens under someone else's control? Do tell. Regardless, this is an easily disrupted three or more card combo that actively aims to create board states that are counter to your own victory. How is this ban worthy? Lets say they do ban it. Now they swap to Rakdos Charm which has utility outside the combo and doesn't telegraph your play... Now they ban Rakdos Charm so you instead move to using Tainted Aether along with token debuffs. Let's just ban everything right?

Repercussion is at best a combo/chaos card. It's barely even playable. There's zero possibility it will ever be banned. It's FAR easier and more consistent to spawn a "metric ton" of tokens under your own control with Impact Tremors or Purphoros in play compared to the hoops of exploiting Repercussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban Suggestion: Reprocussion, Burgeoning, and Awakening
AgePosted: 2016-May-26 9:03 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Nigerian Prince wrote:
Sol Ring is way better, and also not banworthy.
I wouldn't take that as a place to base an argument. I don't want to hijack this thread to talk about it, but there is at least a vocal minority who think Sol Ring is a blight on the format.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban Suggestion: Reprocussion, Burgeoning, and Awakening
AgePosted: 2016-May-26 5:18 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
JJackson wrote:
Nigerian Prince wrote:
Sol Ring is way better, and also not banworthy.
I wouldn't take that as a place to base an argument. I don't want to hijack this thread to talk about it, but there is at least a vocal minority who think Sol Ring is a blight on the format.


True, bad example I guess... Lets just say there are cards that do a better job of getting you some early extra mana, but are not on the watch list for banning. I just wanted to point out that these kind of cards tend to be dead draws past turn five-seven. In an opening hand, a player who has Burgeoning (or Sol Ring) can set a whole different pace to his game, but over X games that advantage is evened out by late drawing of the card. For each time a player gets an early lead and runs away with the game, there will be several times that player will be top decking Burgeoning and lose a game because of that.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban Suggestion: Reprocussion, Burgeoning, and Awakening
AgePosted: 2016-May-27 5:24 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
RaiRai wrote:
Ehh, I mainly suggest certain cards to be banned based on CMC, what kind of board state they create and the reaction of other players, and what kind of shenanigans they enable/prevent.

Please, as a kindness, don't suggest more cards to be banned. Instead, ask about it and ask why it isn't banned -- that's fine. But just suggesting cards should be banned (when they shouldn't be banned format-wide) is a fast way to get the regulars to ignore your requests. However, asking about cards, and strategies to combat other cards/strategies are more than welcome.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban Suggestion: Reprocussion, Burgeoning, and Awakening
AgePosted: 2016-May-27 5:35 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-24 8:05 pm
Age: Drake
Epsilon wrote:
Someone can easily spawn a "metric ton" of tokens under someone else's control? Do tell.


There are some: Hunted Phantasm, Varchild's War-Riders, Alliance of Arms, Infernal Genesis, Tombstone Stairwell.

I don't think a 3-card (4 if you need a sac outlet) combo with Repercussion and mass burn is a big problem though.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban Suggestion: Reprocussion, Burgeoning, and Awakening
AgePosted: 2016-May-28 5:19 am 

Joined: 2015-Sep-02 2:49 am
Age: Drake
Location: Connecticut
Carthain wrote:
However, asking about cards, and strategies to combat other cards/strategies are more than welcome.


That would be incredibly welcome, format wide, as the default solution to problem cards. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's read forum venom when answers and strategies are suggested to problems. From house-ruling problem cards, to the 75% concept, fun as a format concept - the realistic solution to Rairai's problem is, unfortunately, suggesting he tell the others in his playgroup to lower their power level so that he wins more matches. It's always the winners who have to adjust, or so it seems, if you only read message boards. Suggesting self improvement would take the format in too spikey a direction.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban Suggestion: Reprocussion, Burgeoning, and Awakening
AgePosted: 2016-May-28 6:11 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
What is the 75% concept?


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 Post subject: Re: Ban Suggestion: Reprocussion, Burgeoning, and Awakening
AgePosted: 2016-May-28 6:28 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Baron Cappuccino wrote:
Suggesting self improvement would take the format in too spikey a direction.

Learning how to better combat certain things doesn't imply a Spike attitude at all. Especially since the psychographics are why one plays, not how.


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