[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 379: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 379: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 379: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
MTG Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander • View topic - Why are certain cards banned or not banned?

Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2020-Jan-18 1:39 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Why are certain cards banned or not banned?
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-24 6:24 pm 

Joined: 2013-Apr-22 12:09 pm
Age: Wyvern
My google fu is unfortunately lacking

A.
I do not see the reason why cards should be banned based on real life value. Especially since this is not the case considering 50+ cards are allowed that cost over a hundred US dollars, while a few costs hundreds. Now some, I can understand based on power level alone. Other I cannot.

Ancestral Recall
Many cards draw way harder than this card, early it means discarding, mid to late game other better cards exist(consecrated sphinx)

Black Lotus
Yes, Busted. but people still abuse lotus bloom.

Karakas
I agree that a land that bounces legends is strong, but kor haven also shuts down legends as well as maze of ith.

Library of Alexandria
It draws a card with a steep unabusable condition(well not easily). I see no problem

Mox Sapphire, Ruby, Pearl, Emerald and Jet
Could be overpowered yes, but sol ring and mana crypt are a thing.

Time Vault
Easily broken. so stay banned.

Time Walk
Severly undercosted so stay banned.

Workshop, imperial seal, dual lands, and many other cards are herp derp expensive. I see no reason to ban certain cards based on cost and not others.

B.
Gifts ungiven
While very stong, I do not see anything suer busted that cant be achieved through intuition

Protean Hulk
Only combo I can think of is the modern melira combo for infinite life. which doesnt win you the game. (see section C for tooth and nail)

Painter's servant
With the exception of the grindstone combo, I do not see how this breaks the game.

Tinker
other effects like this exist, while i agree that its powerful, it could be unbanned and play groups can yell at people for pulling a blightsteel turn three(which there are other ways to do this just as easy)

Tolarian Academy
Good in some decks the way that cradle is good in other decks(except cradle is busted because of tokens and there sint a way to make obscene amounts of artifacts)

C.
you talk about cards that are banned because of power level?

Tooth and Nail - The ONE card combo
This card can search tons of two card combos that instant win the game.....yet it isnt banned.....yet protean hulk is.....


I would really appreciate any comments and feedback. If I had a better understanding as to why a card is/isnt banned I will leave this alone, unless your reasoning makes absolutely no sense.

Thanks in advance.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why are certain cards banned or not banned?
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-24 7:24 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
This is the best I've been able to compile: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the- ... faq#banned

I'm sure it won't be as in-depth or exhaustive as you'd like, but it's a start.

This is also required reading: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12254


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why are certain cards banned or not banned?
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-24 7:58 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2013-Aug-06 1:27 pm
Age: Drake
I’ll share some of my current opinions on the cards. I also recommend you check out the links that Cryogen posted.

1.

Every blue deck wants to play this card. New players are turned off a game when they learn they can’t afford cards.

2.

Black Lotus is so much better than that you shouldn’t compare the two.

3.

Bouncing a legendary is much more powerful than removing it from combat.

4.

I personally don’t think LoA is as strong as people say but it’s banned for the same reason as Ancestral Recall.

5. Mox Rocks

I’d prefer less broken mana rocks.

6.

I agree.

6.5.

is busted and I wouldn’t mind seeing it go. Most black players want and almost all players want duals but the cards aren’t necessary in a deck so most people just get over it.

7.

can pull out most of the combos but Gifts can bring out more since it gets you two cards. I’d prefer if the format had less tutors.

8. Hulk

From my experience it seems that most players dislike combo. I think taking him off the list would cause more harm than good.

9.

becoming an EDH staple made Servant coming off the list very unlikely.

10.

Dying to a before your 2nd turn isn’t very fun. All it takes is an island, mana crypt, and tinker.

11.

Too many people have been emotionally scarred by this card for it to come off the list.

12.

It doesn’t always win the game and costs a lot of mana. I wouldn’t mind seeing it banned though.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why are certain cards banned or not banned?
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-24 9:39 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why are certain cards banned or not banned?
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-24 11:14 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Ancestral Recall: This card is more banned for its legacy as a P9 card than its actual effect. It can easily be somewhat demoralizing to a new player to see people running around with one of the most expensive cards in the game as if it's a staple. And while the effect is far weaker in EDH than in standard play, it would still be one of the best blue cards in the game and virtually every deck would be better for having it. Hell, is unbelievably worse than it yet is generally considered a staple. This one isn't banned for any one reason, more of a case of "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts."

Black Lotus: So, basically what I said about Ancestral Recall, x1000. It's even more expensive, even more iconic, and there are multitudes of cards which are so much worse than it (, , any card with "Ritual" or "Spirit Guide" in the name) that are competive staples. Every deck is better with it than without it, which just isn't something you want from a card that gets into the $10,000 range (and will keep growing forever and ever).

Karkaras: So, again like Ancestral Recall, but this one is less about price/availability and more about the effect. It is a card with a disproportionately powerful (arguably broken) effect that can go into any deck and make that deck better. This one has even less oppurtunity cost than the other two, as it is strictly better than a basic Plains. And going up against this card and basically never being able to have your general out for more than a turn unless your opponent thinks it isn't a threat is absolutely no fun, which is the point of playing EDH.

Library: Same as Recall and Lotus. Super expensive, super powerful, super ubiquitous, very little oppurtunity cost.

Moxen: Read the above. Every deck gets better by having them in. I personally would argue that the only reason the moxes aren't better than even Lotus is because Lotus can go in every deck. That said, imagine the stupidity of a 5-color deck. All five Moxen and the Lotus, plus all the stupid fast mana that is already legal? No thank you.

Mishra's Workshop: Eh, not near ubiquitous enough. Few decks run a high enough concentration of artifacts for it to be worth it, and most of the decks that do are hyper competitive and don't care about the price.

Imperial Seal: Unlike the other super expensive and ubiquitous cards, Imperial Seal is not far and away the best at what it does. While pretty much any good/cheap tutor is overpowered in EDH by virtue of being a tutor, Imperial Seal isn't anything special. Just for comparison: Ancestral Recall is a $5,000 card whose closest comparison is a $50 card that is strictly worse. Imperial Seal is an $800 card whose closest comparison is a $30 card that is strictly better.

Gifts Ungiven: Honestly, your point sounds like a better argument to ban Intuition than unban gifts. Though there are some major differences. The first is that Gifts is cheaper and easier to acquire, meaning more non-competitive players/decks have it. The second is sheer power. A 4-card tutor for 4 is FAR more powerful than a 3-card tutor for 3. This is then compounded by the fact that Gifts' "drawback" is virtually irrelevant in EDH.

Hulk: The arguments for this card staying banned and being unbanned are so voluminous and nuanced that I don't trust myself to abridge them accurately. Long story short: I personally agree that it should come off, but understand and accept the reasons why it hasn't.

Painter's Servant: This card has no reason to be on the list, but every time it's discussed there are so many non-sequiturs thrown around that it's impossible to make any real conversation about the actual reasons why it should or shouldn't be.

Tinker: This was a (relatively) recent ban. Tutors in general are stupid good, tutors in blue that put whatever they're searching into play for 3 mana are too obnoxious to be allowed.

Tolarian Academy: This one is a bit nuanced. Obviously it has the iconic status of being TA, but that is merely one problem. Artifacts in general tend to be pretty explosive early game, and TA makes that problem worse. And unlike a lot of other explosive lands or cards like or , Tolarian Academy tends to get even better as the game goes on, turning your early advantage into a mid-late game landslide. It also warps decks towards including more small artifacts, which creates a generally less interactive and more boring gameplay experience. The game is fun when you make big splashy plays, but not when those plays happen turn 4.

Tooth and Nail: Honestly, I personally don't care whether it's banned or not. Ideally, I'd prefer that this and Hulk have the same fate: either both are gone or neither is.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why are certain cards banned or not banned?
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-25 5:12 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Something people are hinting at, but not outright stating is that "being a combo" isn't a ban criteria on its own. It is, at best, a subcategory of "creates undesirable game states."


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why are certain cards banned or not banned?
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-25 5:36 am 

Joined: 2013-Apr-22 12:09 pm
Age: Wyvern


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why are certain cards banned or not banned?
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-25 9:06 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Of all legal cards, the two closest to being bannable, in my opinion, are T&N and Survival of the Fittest. Your assessment of the card isn't wrong, but the RC doesn't think it crosses the line.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why are certain cards banned or not banned?
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-26 12:41 am 
EDH Rules Committee
User avatar

Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
There are a number of unbanned cards for which someone could make a reasonable argument to ban. Keep in mind our relatively conservative approach due to a strong desire to keep the list as short as possible. Would "one more card" hurt? Depends on how many times you invoke it.

_________________
"Leave the gun. Take the cannolis."


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why are certain cards banned or not banned?
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-26 3:11 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA

_________________
3DH4L1F3


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why are certain cards banned or not banned?
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-26 3:13 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why are certain cards banned or not banned?
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-26 10:28 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why are certain cards banned or not banned?
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-26 3:23 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why are certain cards banned or not banned?
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-27 12:37 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why are certain cards banned or not banned?
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-27 2:28 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: