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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 1:19 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Sovarius wrote:

niheloim wrote:
I personally think the reserve list could go away without any real issues. player perception is the big problem- no one wants to think wizards is greedy or a bunch of liars, and the reserve list helps keep those accusations at bay.

Why do you think that? I don't think the amount of money they could sell sealed product for (especially at the small amounts they do 'master' sets at already) to have a net gain after litigation. Then, you have a lot of collateral trust issues that would hurt business i think.
thats what I said. The cards would not be reprinted in any numbers or formats to matter, rather the impact on good-will the reserve list has would be gone.

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niheloim wrote:
However, if the policy ever starts to impact EDH like it has vintage and legacy, I suspect we might all of us change our tunes.

Not me. Reserve List hasn't priced me out of legacy and i could have made more jumps into vintage-only staples by now if i chose.
Of course some people still play vintage and legacy. Just as some play EDH with the high dollar cards. But as it currently stands the reserve list has no impact on the most popular formats- EDH, Modern, and Standard. The one format it potentially could affect is EDH. If that happens in the same way as has happened with vintage and legacy, the good-will the reserve list garners would be diminished.

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Like i said here before, there's so little on the reserve list a commander player needs. People need to accept that cards are a luxury. The more people priced out of RL cards in commander means the more people you will play against who do not have them, anyway, meaning you don't need them.

On a related note, i kind of wish people would just stop trying to build 3 color decks and suck it up and play tier 2 decks in legacy that don't need duals. Or play a small number of shocks and INN duals and just suck up to Wasteland. I sort of think eventually people are so priced out of duals, that there enough people in a tournament (not GP/Open size, but you know, local) also playing with shocks you can get by a little easier. I mean i have more duals more than most of the people around me combined, but if they all wanted to play legacy and stop whining about the price points, they'd all be on the same disadvantage with shocks. Do you lose to people with duals? Yes. Idk, oh well. When i didn't have expensive or fancy cards i still played for fun. Though of course i get it, i would not pay $30 for a tournament with any real frequency if i expected to lose, which is also why people are adamant about having duals and not playing monocolor.
I know, i'm crazy, and people shouldn't have to subject themselves to a losing position, but still.
I've found that some 2-color decks are hurt more by not having duals. In a three color deck you can get away with the lesser dual lands because your decks is more color diverse. In a 2-color deck not having one color in sufficient amount can lock you out of a significant portion of the deck.

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niheloim wrote:
there are a lot of cards I pass up because I'm not willing to pay for them. theres a reason I dont run Time Stretch in more decks, and its not because I'm anti-extra-turn. its a dollar rare selling for 10.

Then it's not a dollar rare. I don't understand that part. But i mean i get it, if you mean "it's not $10 to me, i don't get $10 of use out of it". $10 is not at all "a lot" but it sure is if you have handfuls of $10 cards per deck and want several decks.
I thought it would be obvious that I was referring to a personal estimation of the worth of Time Stretch, especially given I'm willing to pay for more expensive cards. This being indicative of the nature of the issue. EDH is playable by so many because there are alternatives to expensive cards. This is not true of all formats.

Still, price is not the same as value.

There are some cards that are overpriced. There are some cards that are overvalued. Supply and demand matter, hence Ghostly Prison being more expensive than Propaganda...

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 1:36 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
the impact on good-will the reserve list has would be gone.
What good will? I would say the majority of people who own reserved list cards would rather have people to play with than have the reserve list remain intact. Let's also keep in mind that even if you reprinted power at "Ultra Mythic" like in Vintage Masters but in paper in a limited print run, it would likely have a very minimal negative impact on the price of original power. Just like MM1 actually boosted the price of Tarmogoyf, and even today, after MM2 Tarmogoyf still costs more than it did prior to MM1. And the thing that brought prices down is not that there are more Goyfs around nearly so much as Goyf decks getting worse in Modern and much worse Legacy.

If anything, increasing the available copies of duals and power by a factor of something like 2-5 would make them feel more attainable but likely keep prices well above 2014 levels, much less 2010 or 2005 levels (which was years after the reserved list came into effect and duals were 10% their current prices).

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 1:44 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Quote:
I've found that some 2-color decks are hurt more by not having duals. In a three color deck you can get away with the lesser dual lands because your decks is more color diverse. In a 2-color deck not having one color in sufficient amount can lock you out of a significant portion of the deck.


While this is true, there are TONS of dual lands at this point. There is absolutely no need for revised duals. In my Olivia deck I've had far more games where I could easily cast a ball lightning or necropotence on turn 3 compared to the number of games I couldn't cast my commander on time. I've even had games where I could cast a BBBBB or a RRRRR on turn 5. The majority can even enter untapped more often than not. That deck does have a Badlands in it but I could easily replace it with a Graven Cairns or god forbid a Tainted Peak to reach the same level of parity without resorting to the enters tapped bad lands.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 2:25 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Epsilon wrote:
Quote:
I've found that some 2-color decks are hurt more by not having duals. In a three color deck you can get away with the lesser dual lands because your decks is more color diverse. In a 2-color deck not having one color in sufficient amount can lock you out of a significant portion of the deck.


While this is true, there are TONS of dual lands at this point. There is absolutely no need for revised duals. In my Olivia deck I've had far more games where I could easily cast a ball lightning or necropotence on turn 3 compared to the number of games I couldn't cast my commander on time. I've even had games where I could cast a BBBBB or a RRRRR on turn 5. The majority can even enter untapped more often than not. That deck does have a Badlands in it but I could easily replace it with a Graven Cairns or god forbid a Tainted Peak to reach the same level of parity without resorting to the enters tapped bad lands.

In two color how many of them come into play untapped? The lesser duals, like Highland Lake, are going to be fine if the meta doesn't punish a slower-than-normal-for-EDH tempo. But for entering untapped in UR- Cascade Bluffs, Shivan Reef, Sulfur Falls, Steam Vents, Command Tower, City of Brass... and maybe a few others that aren't really worth mentioning. thats not very many compared to what a three color can run. Allied 2-color pairs get a few more options I think, but not many more.

Compare that to Caldera Lake, Highland Lake, Izzet Boilderworks, Izzet Guildgate, Swiftwater Cliffs, Temple of Epiphany, Wandering Fumarole, Grand Coliseum (just for Parity with City of Brass)...

It isn't as feasible to have a 2-color deck that can run as smoothly without EtBT lands as is in a 3-color deck. The jump to 3 colors opens up 2 additional filter lands, 2 additional check lands, 2 additional shocks, 2 additional Pain lands, and at least 1 of the Urza filter lands if we didn't already have one.

3 color decks might be a bit more expensive overall, but they tend to be easier on color and tempo

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Last edited by niheloim on 2016-Jul-12 4:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 3:29 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Just two color you have show lands, pain lands, fast lands, shock lands, tangos, check lands, shadow lands, filters, fetches, tainted and possibly some others depending on the color pairs. Then add in command tower and other viable "any color" lands (which is nearly as large a list). At the very least, the ravnica bounce lands, manlands and scry lands are entirely playable as tap lands.

Assuming you want to stick around ~15 basics with ~10 lands that add to both that only leaves a few slots for utility lands that aren't fixing. I'd honestly say 10 lands that add both colors is potentially too much in a two color deck. The majority of cards require 1-2 on color costs and you'll generally have more in the way of non land color fixing. While it's nice to not have to care about colors it's really not necessary to really push the limit unless you have a very aggressive mana requirement in the first few turns.

SOME color pairs are screwed out of some duals since there are cycles that weren't completed but anything with green, white (search) or black (tainted cycle/search) are fine. That basically leaves Izzet which is generally more concerned with quantity of mana over quality of mana.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 3:42 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
In EDH, if your deck doesn't function without ABUR duals, your deck doesn't function. Blaming mana problems on not owning expensive lands is such a sad crutch. If all else fails, just run more lands.

People on this forum are probably less greedy on average than more casual players, and many still talk about running 36 lands in a format where you should really have at least 40 (plus mana rocks.)

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 4:10 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
crokaycete wrote:
In EDH, if your deck doesn't function without ABUR duals, your deck doesn't function. Blaming mana problems on not owning expensive lands is such a sad crutch. If all else fails, just run more lands.

People on this forum are probably less greedy on average than more casual players, and many still talk about running 36 lands in a format where you should really have at least 40 (plus mana rocks.)

Also, the part where people try to over-optimize their lands to avoid EtBT and leave themselves vulnerable to nonbasic hate.

Play more lands. Play more basics.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 4:37 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Epsilon wrote:
Just two color you have show lands, pain lands, fast lands, shock lands, tangos, check lands, shadow lands, filters, fetches, tainted and possibly some others depending on the color pairs. Then add in command tower and other viable "any color" lands (which is nearly as large a list). At the very least, the ravnica bounce lands, manlands and scry lands are entirely playable as tap lands.
you're gonna have to slow down with the lingo... fast lands? which ones are those? Rootwater Depths? I don't think thats a viable option. Over something like a vivid.

Also, I intentionally left out fetches, but those would make a big difference.

Quote:
SOME color pairs are screwed out of some duals since there are cycles that weren't completed but anything with green, white (search) or black (tainted cycle/search) are fine. That basically leaves Izzet which is generally more concerned with quantity of mana over quality of mana.
allied pairs do have it easier,


But I think you've overstated the black and white search abilities. Its certainly doable (I do fine with my BW and UR decks), but the choices in construction are more restrictive than in something 3 color. Thats what I mean. You're going to have to go out of your way to ensure you have your colors are available in a way that doesn't happen in a 3 color deck.

tarnar wrote:
crokaycete wrote:
In EDH, if your deck doesn't function without ABUR duals, your deck doesn't function. Blaming mana problems on not owning expensive lands is such a sad crutch. If all else fails, just run more lands.

People on this forum are probably less greedy on average than more casual players, and many still talk about running 36 lands in a format where you should really have at least 40 (plus mana rocks.)

Also, the part where people try to over-optimize their lands to avoid EtBT and leave themselves vulnerable to nonbasic hate.

Play more lands. Play more basics.
yup.

I don't think 40 is necessary in every deck. 37 to 38 is where I usually end up with 5-10 other sources of mana- of which 5 of them really need to be 3 mana or less.

But I'm all about the basics.

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Last edited by niheloim on 2016-Jul-12 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 4:40 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
People on this forum are probably less greedy on average than more casual players, and many still talk about running 36 lands in a format where you should really have at least 40 (plus mana rocks.)


I don't currently own a deck with more than 34 lands in it... even after the changes to the mulligan rule. If you're drawing enough cards, you'll never miss a land drop. If you're not drawing enough cards, missing a land drop is the least of your concerns (and flooding is even more dangerous). The general rule is start at 40 then remove one land per two ramp/rock/draw spells. The odds are good that most decks worth their salt are running at least 20% of the spells (12 - two ramp, four rocks, six draw?) in their deck that will do one of the above so dropping down to 34 lands is not overly risky. Most strong decks will actually be closer to double that number on cards that fit that criteria whether themselves or through deck synergies... You need enough lands to hit your sweet spot where the engines in your deck take over. That tends to be 3-5 mana.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 4:44 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
crokaycete wrote:
In EDH, if your deck doesn't function without ABUR duals, your deck doesn't function. Blaming mana problems on not owning expensive lands is such a sad crutch. If all else fails, just run more lands.

People on this forum are probably less greedy on average than more casual players, and many still talk about running 36 lands in a format where you should really have at least 40 (plus mana rocks.)

I have a friend who is new to the format. I would say 90% of the games we've played has seen him mana screwed. He doesn't play enough lands. Doesn't play enough ways to get them. Doesn't get them when he has a tutor... Its a little sad.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 4:56 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
Just two color you have show lands, pain lands, fast lands, shock lands, tangos, check lands, shadow lands, filters, fetches, tainted and possibly some others depending on the color pairs. Then add in command tower and other viable "any color" lands (which is nearly as large a list). At the very least, the ravnica bounce lands, manlands and scry lands are entirely playable as tap lands.
you're gonna have to slow down with the lingo... fast lands? which ones are those? Rootwater Depths? I don't think thats a viable option. Over something like a vivid.

Also, I intentionally left out fetches, but those would make a big difference.

Quote:
SOME color pairs are screwed out of some duals since there are cycles that weren't completed but anything with green, white (search) or black (tainted cycle/search) are fine. That basically leaves Izzet which is generally more concerned with quantity of mana over quality of mana.
allied pairs do have it easier,


But I think you've overstated the black and white search abilities. Its certainly doable (I do fine with my BW and UR decks), but the choices in construction are more restrictive than in something 3 color. Thats what I mean. You're going to have to go out of your way to ensure you have your colors are available in a way that doesn't happen in a 3 color deck.


Fast lands are the Mirrodin lands that enter untapped until you have three other lands in play which are the turns that entering tapped are likely to matter if you're concerned about tempo and early color availability. Show lands are the "reveal a [creature type] or it enters tapped" from Lorwyn. The others are recent enough they should be obvious.

Land Tax, Tithe, Endless Horizons, Gift of Estates, Knight of the White Orchid, Kor Cartographer, Oreskos Explorer, Eternal Dragon, Weathered Wayfarer, etc... There's a TON of powerful land search in white. Most will find non basics to be able to find whatever color you actually need.

Black has less powerful land search but it's there with Liliana of the Dark Realms and such. It also has the tainted cycle which is excellent as far as dual land cycles go.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 5:00 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
You need enough lands to hit your sweet spot where the engines in your deck take over. That tends to be 3-5 mana.
I think your metagame is a significant outlier. Most EDH decks I see have their engines take over at 5-8 mana, not 3-5. 34 lands would be a comically low number in what I observe as the "modal" EDH deck, but if you are really fully functional at 3 mana, it might be right for you.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 5:14 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Epsilon wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
Just two color you have show lands, pain lands, fast lands, shock lands, tangos, check lands, shadow lands, filters, fetches, tainted and possibly some others depending on the color pairs. Then add in command tower and other viable "any color" lands (which is nearly as large a list). At the very least, the ravnica bounce lands, manlands and scry lands are entirely playable as tap lands.
you're gonna have to slow down with the lingo... fast lands? which ones are those? Rootwater Depths? I don't think thats a viable option. Over something like a vivid.

Also, I intentionally left out fetches, but those would make a big difference.

Quote:
SOME color pairs are screwed out of some duals since there are cycles that weren't completed but anything with green, white (search) or black (tainted cycle/search) are fine. That basically leaves Izzet which is generally more concerned with quantity of mana over quality of mana.
allied pairs do have it easier,


But I think you've overstated the black and white search abilities. Its certainly doable (I do fine with my BW and UR decks), but the choices in construction are more restrictive than in something 3 color. Thats what I mean. You're going to have to go out of your way to ensure you have your colors are available in a way that doesn't happen in a 3 color deck.


Fast lands are the Mirrodin lands that enter untapped until you have three other lands in play which are the turns that entering tapped are likely to matter if you're concerned about tempo and early color availability. Show lands are the "reveal a [creature type] or it enters tapped" from Lorwyn. The others are recent enough they should be obvious.
Ok... I rarely see any of those. I was thinking the show lands were the new duals where you revealed a land type. We've avoided those as well so never bothered with a name. I think we've referred to the as tribal lands.

But those mirrodin lands are terrible. Only moderately better than a normal EtBT land.

Quote:
Land Tax, Tithe, Endless Horizons, Gift of Estates, Knight of the White Orchid, Kor Cartographer, Oreskos Explorer, Eternal Dragon, Weathered Wayfarer, etc... There's a TON of powerful land search in white. Most will find non basics to be able to find whatever color you actually need.

Black has less powerful land search but it's there with Liliana of the Dark Realms and such. It also has the tainted cycle which is excellent as far as dual land cycles go.
There is no need to list (though I'm glad you did. I'd forgotten all about Eternal Dragon. I think that would be cute in my all fliers UW).

The white are often situational or not really worth a slot- or they are because two color decks are required to slot dedicated cards to ensuring colors...

But I'll give you land tax and Cartographer. Land tax is too good because its repeatable and bonkers with Scroll Rack. And Cartographer puts the land into play without restriction. Endless Horizons is ok too, but I've only found it so in mono white.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 5:46 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
You need enough lands to hit your sweet spot where the engines in your deck take over. That tends to be 3-5 mana.
I think your metagame is a significant outlier. Most EDH decks I see have their engines take over at 5-8 mana, not 3-5. 34 lands would be a comically low number in what I observe as the "modal" EDH deck, but if you are really fully functional at 3 mana, it might be right for you.


Three mana hits mana rocks, rhystic study, burnished hart, trinket mage, wheel of fortune, Thada Adel, Phyrexian Arena, Cultivate, Azusa, etc. These cards help propel you into the end game. It also enables MOST targeted removal.

Four mana hits thran dynamo, bident of thassa, Ephara, sad robot, etc. These cards propel you into the end game. It also enables the majority of targeted removal and many board wipes.

Five mana hits Gilded Lotus, Tezzeret the Seeker, Mind's Eye, Mirrari's Wake, Doubling Season, Conjurer's Closet, Azami, etc. These cards propel you into the end game. It also has all the best counters, board wipes, and reasonable threats. You are very much "in the game" by five mana.

Nowhere did I say "all you need is 3-5 mana". Merely that all you need is 3-5 mana to start hitting your engines and ramp that keeps you in the game. If you're on curve for land drops but still drawing one card per turn you're not going to keep up.

Honestly, you can hit your engines at one or two mana... Top, Sol Ring, Land Tax, Aether Vial, scroll rack, library, Exploration, Burgeoning, Mystic Remora, etc... There's certainly no waiting until 5-8 mana to start setting up your game.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 5:54 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Epsilon wrote:
crokaycete wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
You need enough lands to hit your sweet spot where the engines in your deck take over. That tends to be 3-5 mana.
I think your metagame is a significant outlier. Most EDH decks I see have their engines take over at 5-8 mana, not 3-5. 34 lands would be a comically low number in what I observe as the "modal" EDH deck, but if you are really fully functional at 3 mana, it might be right for you.


Three mana hits mana rocks, rhystic study, burnished hart, trinket mage, wheel of fortune, Thada Adel, Phyrexian Arena, Cultivate, Azusa, etc. These cards help propel you into the end game. It also enables MOST targeted removal.

Four mana hits thran dynamo, bident of thassa, Ephara, sad robot, etc. These cards propel you into the end game. It also enables the majority of targeted removal and many board wipes.

Five mana hits Gilded Lotus, Tezzeret the Seeker, Mind's Eye, Mirrari's Wake, Doubling Season, Conjurer's Closet, Azami, etc. These cards propel you into the end game. It also has all the best counters, board wipes, and reasonable threats. You are very much "in the game" by five mana.

Nowhere did I say "all you need is 3-5 mana". Merely that all you need is 3-5 mana to start hitting your engines and ramp that keeps you in the game. If you're on curve for land drops but still drawing one card per turn you're not going to keep up.

Honestly, you can hit your engines at one or two mana... Top, Sol Ring, Land Tax, Aether Vial, scroll rack, library, Exploration, Burgeoning, Mystic Remora, etc... There's certainly no waiting until 5-8 mana to start setting up your game.

sol ring is an engine?

EDIT: I think you guys are talking passed each other. One is talking mana cost of the cards, one is talking about mana available when the engines "take over".

I would agree that most decks are not being driven by their engine at turn 3. Turn 5 is when engines are coming online across the table and by 8 is when we see them driving the momentum of a game.

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