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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-13 2:36 pm 
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Carthain wrote:
Quote:
Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.
Nothing about adding/removing/changing super types makes it not functionally the same.
Incorrect. The limit is "functionally identical" - which is something like Llanowar Elves / Fyndhorn Elves / Elvish Mystic. Since the name has no real bearing on the rules, the card is functionally identical.

If you add a supertype, you have made a change to how the card interacts with other cards in the game, so it is no longer "functionally identical" to the game. Same thing with changing subtypes, colors, etc. A single change to something other than the name of the card makes it no longer functionally identical, and therefore doable under the RL rules.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-13 3:14 pm 
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Edit: After following several links to the actual survey...


Whoops, I guess I should have been a little more direct in the links. If anyone else was having trouble finding the survey, here's a direct link rather than a link to a link to a link...


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-13 6:18 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Willbender wrote:
Carthain wrote:
Quote:
Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.
Nothing about adding/removing/changing super types makes it not functionally the same.
Incorrect. The limit is "functionally identical" - which is something like Llanowar Elves / Fyndhorn Elves / Elvish Mystic. Since the name has no real bearing on the rules, the card is functionally identical.

If you add a supertype, you have made a change to how the card interacts with other cards in the game, so it is no longer "functionally identical" to the game. Same thing with changing subtypes, colors, etc. A single change to something other than the name of the card makes it no longer functionally identical, and therefore doable under the RL rules.

The policy has a definition of 'functionally identical' spelled out, and it is just cost/type/subtype/power/toughness/abilities. Even though a snow dual can do things a abur dual can't, it meets their definition of functionally identical. Pretty stupid, but that is the reserved list for you.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-14 12:14 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
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Willbender wrote:
Carthain wrote:
Quote:
Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.
Nothing about adding/removing/changing super types makes it not functionally the same.
Incorrect. The limit is "functionally identical" - which is something like Llanowar Elves / Fyndhorn Elves / Elvish Mystic. Since the name has no real bearing on the rules, the card is functionally identical.

No, you don't quite get it (and to be fair, I didn't note where I was getting the definition of functionally identical from). When I told what makes something functionally identical - that's the definition on the reserve list itself. Thus, a supertype doesn't count for the reserve list.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-14 2:52 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Bear with me here, this is a *slightly* longer-than-necessary post.

specter404 wrote:
What I am really worried about is, what will we do if they come for our teferi's imp? Sure it's only 50c now, but who knows what could happen if Skreli goes all in on a buy out.

Why would he do that? He was pretty clear about collecting rare cards and had only picked up Lotuses and Moxen.

If he was going to cause extreme buyouts, i am sure of two things: 1. He would not announce it by asking for financial advice, 2. Not Teferi's Imp.

He likes to dick around and get attention, but if he was really going to make a profit he'd not be wise to announce what he's doing. He could have asked high end dealers in private to advise him.
There are also good handfuls of people who could destroy cards with buyouts, i can 6 off the top of my head. The only reason people fear Shkreli is because they think he's a douchebag who would actually do it based on his pharmaceutical decision, which, not to get off topic, isn't remotely as bad as people pretend it is, and doesn't give me any inclination to believe he's going to dick with Teferi's Imp.

On part 2, Teferi's Imp has no pay off, even if bought out. Look at Polar Kraken. It's not a $5 card, no one is paying $5 with significant regularity. He would have to buy every Teferi's Imp and then still lose money to fees for shipping/ebay/tcg/paypal. And no one wants that card except to finish a set maybe. As soon they are all bought, everyone with dozens in their cloest will come out of the woodwork and flood the market. How can it ever have more demand than Spirit of the Night or Zirilan of the Claw?

I mean yeah, you just threw a name out there and i get you. But i think my point is that could happen at any time with any card, Shkreli is not interested in Imps, and even though he's the world biggest evil to some people for some reason, he surely isn't here to dick with cards you can literally buy for 20 cents.

Honestly if i could get one point across, virtually all of the people who fear Shkreli are absolutely not the people he cares about.

Mockingbird wrote:
One of the interesting points in the survey is it asks if instead of advocating for the end of the Reserved List, players should advocate for removing the Reserved List from Commander.[...]
It also seems to be an interesting option because a friend I talked to yesterday said that Commander spiked the Reserved List market, not Legacy.

I don't think that will ever happen. The RC is not about banning cards based on something like that, only Perceived Barrier to Entry if needed.

It's also a garbage idea. Most of the most powerful reserve list cards legal in this format and not required, are a total luxury, or have replacements.

And i'm pretty sure your friend is wrong. Ask him how much play Moat, Null Rod, Lion's Eye Diamond, City of Traitors, Gaea's Cradle really see in this format.
Some casual RL staples, sure... Altar of Bone lol.

Spectrar Ghost wrote:
You could possibly ban reserved list cards from commander

it seems clear that someone doesn't understand the formats and their goals very well.

To the first point, yes, it's like the "no reserve list legacy" format that everyone thought would be announced.

Secondly, what did you expect?

But yeah, no rl-legacy, vintage, or commander would be ridiculous.

Epsilon wrote:
They can't. The reserved list prohibits functional reprints. Adding Snow to the type line doesn't change the functionality enough to get around the rules. They'd have to be legendary which defeats the purpose. They also can't produce enough product in a non standard legal set to provide enough of them to not fall into exactly the same issues with those.

No, Snow and Legendary are both supertypes, and neither allow for a reprint because supertype is not factored into 'functional' reprint.

Epsilon wrote:
Harmless Offering is target opponent, not target player so it's not really a color shifted reprint. You lose the whole possibility of stealing something temporarily and donating it to yourself permanently.

The 'fixed' part isn't the only point. They can indeed print a different color version of a RL card. See Null Profusion and Porphyry Nodes.

JJackson wrote:
Fair point, if a fine one. They could, however, just slap Tribal on it. They could also make a land subtype change that would have no effect but meet their functional change criteria.

Not Taiga
Urza's Forest Mountain

I have serious doubts something like this would happen since it appears to be a cop out, and they're trying to break the 'spirit' of the reserve list either.

I think something like the m11/INN dual cycle would be fine Glacial Fortress as an island plains. They would be cool, to me, at least. Hard to invent duals that compete with ABUR. Ravnica duals are already pretty okay... I like Carthain's just fine, too.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-14 3:12 am 
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Sovarius wrote:
I don't think that will ever happen. The RC is not about banning cards based on something like that, only Perceived Barrier to Entry if needed.

It's also a garbage idea. Most of the most powerful reserve list cards legal in this format and not required, are a total luxury, or have replacements.

And i'm pretty sure your friend is wrong. Ask him how much play Moat, Null Rod, Lion's Eye Diamond, City of Traitors, Gaea's Cradle really see in this format.
Some casual RL staples, sure... Altar of Bone lol.
I'm pretty sure he's right.

My friend was talking specifically about the strain demand has put on Dual Lands because he speculates that more people want duals for EDH than Legacy, but he left a caveat that all sorts of cards, both on and off the Reserved List, get a price boost solely on the existence of Commander. His example, Demonic Tutor, is only legal in two formats: Vintage and Commander. And that same demand applies to other Legacy Staples as well, especially Gaea's Cradle if we want to use on of your examples.

The point remains that the existence of the Commander Format adds an entirely new demand to the Magic Market. That demand may not share with all cards equally, but it drives prices, even on the Reserved List.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-14 8:46 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
My comments are specifically about the most recent examples of notoriety. (Moat, Null Rod, LED, CoT, Cradle)

What your friend is describing is not what others would call a spike. I presumed you were talking about the *actual* spikes and not just a increase in demand. Such as the price spike of blue duals in February when EMA was announced.

Demonic Tutor is cheap. What price spike? Look at the slope on the price of DT compared to blue duals over the last 5 years. It will illustrate for you what a spike looks like and you'll understand DT has not 'spiked'.

The same demand is not put on legacy staples as DT. DT is restricted in Vintage, a largely unplayed format by comparison. Cradle is not only more in demand because of the relative popularity of legacy but also because you can play 4 of them.

I have very serious reservations in believing that more people want duals for EDH than for legacy. He "speculates"? What does that mean to him, to you?
I think that the announcement of EMA spiked duals and that the release of Commander products did not.
I think that you need more duals to play in legacy than you do in EDH. Not only that, but the ABUR duals are significantly less mandatory/powerful in EDH than they are in vintage/legacy and any deck can easily do without unless they are of the most well tuned decks possible, which i hope i can safely say is not common in a format that is primarily viewed as casual.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-14 2:12 pm 
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Sovarius wrote:
My comments are specifically about the most recent examples of notoriety. (Moat, Null Rod, LED, CoT, Cradle)

What your friend is describing is not what others would call a spike. I presumed you were talking about the *actual* spikes and not just a increase in demand. Such as the price spike of blue duals in February when EMA was announced.

Demonic Tutor is cheap. What price spike? Look at the slope on the price of DT compared to blue duals over the last 5 years. It will illustrate for you what a spike looks like and you'll understand DT has not 'spiked'.

The same demand is not put on legacy staples as DT. DT is restricted in Vintage, a largely unplayed format by comparison. Cradle is not only more in demand because of the relative popularity of legacy but also because you can play 4 of them.

I have very serious reservations in believing that more people want duals for EDH than for legacy. He "speculates"? What does that mean to him, to you?
I think that the announcement of EMA spiked duals and that the release of Commander products did not.
I think that you need more duals to play in legacy than you do in EDH. Not only that, but the ABUR duals are significantly less mandatory/powerful in EDH than they are in vintage/legacy and any deck can easily do without unless they are of the most well tuned decks possible, which i hope i can safely say is not common in a format that is primarily viewed as casual.


I see where the miscommunication is. My friend is talking about market trends, not spikes. Demonic Tutor retrains value because of Commander, not that it spiked because of commander.

As for the demand between commander and demand for duals, I can PM the person I talked to (I'm sure he's better at speaking for himself than me), but he pointed to the correlation between when duals went over a hundred and the time where commander really took off (2010-2012ish).


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-14 10:30 pm 
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Personally I'd say the price point where duals "really took off" was when they were past 25 bucks.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-14 11:53 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mockingbird wrote:
he pointed to the correlation between when duals went over a hundred and the time where commander really took off (2010-2012ish).
This is a spurious correlation. 2010-2012 is when MAGIC really took off.

In 2009, the largest Legacy GP ever was ~1200 players. In 2010, we had one with 2200. In 2011, 1900. In 2013, 1700. In 2014, 4000. In 2015, 2 that were each 2k. To date this year, an 1800 and a 1500 on the same day. (Heck there were 460 players at Vintage Champs last year.)

There are WAY more Eternal format players today than in 2009 and fewer copies of RL cards floating around. Commander is not driving prices for duals. It's just along for the ride.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-15 5:06 am 
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JJackson wrote:
The policy has a definition of 'functionally identical' spelled out, and it is just cost/type/subtype/power/toughness/abilities.
Yup, you're right - for some reason I'd thought that supertypes were on that list (which it seems like they should be if types and subtypes are).

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-15 11:36 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
specter404 wrote:
What I am really worried about is, what will we do if they come for our teferi's imp? Sure it's only 50c now, but who knows what could happen if Skreli goes all in on a buy out.

Why would he do that? He was pretty clear about collecting rare cards and had only picked up Lotuses and Moxen.

If he was going to cause extreme buyouts, i am sure of two things: 1. He would not announce it by asking for financial advice, 2. Not Teferi's Imp.


Dear god, do I really need the sarcasm font here?

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-16 1:57 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I presumed you were being sarcastic and meant any RL low-value card. Look at Polar Kraken and Narwhal. You would not have been the first to be actually be scared of something like that.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-18 7:21 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Sovarius wrote:
JJackson wrote:
Fair point, if a fine one. They could, however, just slap Tribal on it. They could also make a land subtype change that would have no effect but meet their functional change criteria.

Not Taiga
Urza's Forest Mountain

I have serious doubts something like this would happen since it appears to be a cop out, and they're trying to break the 'spirit' of the reserve list either.

I doubt they'd do that, too. The ABUR duals are the only cards that I think they'd try to manage a workaround with for No Reserve Legacy since they define the manabases of the format.


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