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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Mayael] Dear Mayael...
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-30 7:37 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
In Jeyal's defense: if you win recurring those creatures doesn't matter anymore. Otherwise I agree and it illustrates my problem with the card very well, thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Mayael] Dear Mayael...
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-01 1:32 am 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Omaha
pi wrote:
In Jeyal's defense: if you win recurring those creatures doesn't matter anymore.


To put it differently, the creatures only die if the opponents survive to the end step.

It's hard to define 'good Sneak Attack' critters because they're likely good creatures in general as well. Anything with a CiP-ability becomes a 1-mana instant. (Greenwarden of Murasa, Woodfall Primus, Terastadon, Crater Hellion, Bogardan Hellkite, Cloudthresher, Tornado Elemental, Twilight Shepherd jump to mind. Bloodfire Colossus is a 2-mana Inferno) Anything that changes numbers/offers protection becomes a combat trick. (Old Gisela, Old Avacyn(Techy play: Sneaking in Avacyn in response to an O-Stone activation), Spearbreaker Behemoth, Archetype of Endurance) Obviously things with "dies" triggers are good with Sneak Attack, most of which I play more because they "live through a wrath" rather than "play nicely with Sneak Attack," but synergy is synergy. (Worldspine Wurm, anything with persist, Greenwarden, Spitebellows, Yosei)

There are a lot of cards I am "already playing" that add value to creatures. Where Ancients Tread/Warstorm Surge/Greater Good/Cream of the Crop all get an uptick when Sneak Attack joins the party.

The argument that all of these creatures are better on the field for the long run is absolutely correct. In a perfect world, no one ever kills your guys.

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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Mayael] Dear Mayael...
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-02 1:51 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
What I miss is why I (as in me specifically for my deck) would want those creatures to die? (Other than those with "dies" synergy of course, but I would play few of those in my Mayael list).

I can certainly see that you have tuned your deck very differently. It sounds very much like you want to deal damage ASAP and not worry about turns after that. There's nothing wrong with that, it basically means you probably have a stronger earlier game and a weaker later game. Sneak Attack certainly fits with that philosophy as you can freely burn through resources when you don't expect to see a later game. I do however wonder, what happens when people are able to stop you and the game does go long? Can you perhaps manage to peak and then count on Mayael to drop enough to be able to withstand and overcome the survivors?

Similarly I know that I am weaker earlier on. As such I am playing to survive for quite some time before I start worrying about winning. I tended to face slower decks and we would nearly always have longer games, so I would manage to get away with it and making sure I had the better end game was my ultimate goal. I imagine that your deck would be more suited for a quicker meta, something mine never was.

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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Mayael] Dear Mayael...
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-03 2:42 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-19 12:15 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Sacramento, CA
I've never considered Sneak Attack either. I prefer to have my threats stick around. I think it would be better suited to a Marchesa, Scion, or Kresh deck. Or in a 1v1 game.

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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Mayael] Dear Mayael...
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-18 2:26 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-19 12:15 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Sacramento, CA
Finally something worth considering. It's been a while.
Image

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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Mayael] Dear Mayael...
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-18 2:38 am 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-06 10:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle
slam dunk.

No question, its going in my Mayael.

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Glissa, the Traitor -> Voltron
Mayael the Anima -> Flopping Fatties
Phenax, God of Deception -> Grave Rats
Starke of Rath -> Wrath of Starke: MRC

Proving Grounds: Drawmia-maro, Titania When Lands Attack, Tromokratis Read it Again, Kaalia's Klerics, Hordes of Tribes.


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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Mayael] Dear Mayael...
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-18 11:20 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
I'm not a big fan of creatures that are just big beaters and the extra card draw does not make up for it in my view. However, Regal Behemoth might very well make it into my deck.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Mayael] Dear Mayael...
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-19 12:59 am 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-06 10:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle
Regal Behemoth is another that's getting tossed right in.

As for Skyline Despot, I need one more token maker. There's a lot of sacrificing going on where I play. The card draw is gravy. Plus, dragons.

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Glissa, the Traitor -> Voltron
Mayael the Anima -> Flopping Fatties
Phenax, God of Deception -> Grave Rats
Starke of Rath -> Wrath of Starke: MRC

Proving Grounds: Drawmia-maro, Titania When Lands Attack, Tromokratis Read it Again, Kaalia's Klerics, Hordes of Tribes.


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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Mayael] Dear Mayael...
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-20 1:34 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
Here you go boys!
Image

I'll be back semi shortly with my own list, cause hnnnnnnnnnnnnnggg.

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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Mayael] Dear Mayael...
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-20 6:27 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
This was way harder to build then I remember... So many fatties to choose...

Fatty experts, lend me your wisdom!
Quote:
Commander:
1 Mayael the Anima

Buff Fatties:
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Cyclops of Eternal Fury
1 Vigor
1 Spearbreaker Behemoth
1 Boros Battleshaper
1 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
1 Giant Adephage
1 Utvara Hellkite
1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope

Removal:
1 Aura Shards
1 Steel Hellkite
1 World Breaker
1 Dragonlord Atarka
1 Gruul Ragebeast
1 Balefire Dragon
1 Terastodon
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Mockery of Nature

Sweepers:
1 Divine Reckoning
1 Wrath of God
1 Austere Command
1 Kalemne's Captain
1 Hallowed Burial
1 Hellkite Tyrant
1 Terminus
1 Crater Hellion
1 Novablast Wurm
1 Disaster Radius
1 Warp World

Draw & Recursion:
1 Scroll Rack
1 Greater Good
1 Death or Glory
1 Soul of the Harvest
1 Greenwarden of Murasa
1 Sun Titan
1 Moldgraf Monstrosity

Cheat:
1 Selvala's Stampede
1 See the Unwritten
1 Tooth and Nail

Shenanigans:
1 Maze of Ith
1 Illusionist's Bracers
1 Faith's Reward
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Twilight Shepherd
1 Myojin of Life's Web

Tutors:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Expedition Map
1 Tithe
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Sylvan Scrying

Ramp:
1 Sol Ring
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Rampant Growth
1 Nature's Lore
1 Three Visits
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Reap and Sow
1 Tempt with Discovery
1 Regal Behemoth
1 Ulvenwald Hydra

Lands:
1 Command Tower
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Canopy Vista
1 Cinder Glade
1 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Krosan Verge
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Wooded Bastion
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Boros Garrison
1 Gruul Turf
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Kor Haven
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
1 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Strip Mine
1 Homeward Path
1 Temple of the False God
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Vesuva
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Mountain

By type:

Quote:
Commander:
1 Mayael the Anima

Sorcery:
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Rampant Growth
1 Nature's Lore
1 Three Visits
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Reap and Sow
1 Tempt with Discovery
1 Divine Reckoning
1 Wrath of God
1 Death or Glory
1 Hallowed Burial
1 Terminus
1 Austere Command
1 Selvala's Stampede
1 See the Unwritten
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Disaster Radius
1 Warp World

Instants:
1 Tithe
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Faith's Reward

Artifacts:
1 Expedition Map
1 Sol Ring
1 Scroll Rack
1 Illusionist's Bracers

Enchantments:
1 Aura Shards
1 Greater Good

Creatures:
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Kalemne's Captain
1 Cyclops of Eternal Fury
1 Vigor
1 Crater Hellion
1 Hellkite Tyrant
1 Soul of the Harvest
1 Greenwarden of Murasa
1 Sun Titan
1 Regal Behemoth
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Ulvenwald Hydra
1 Twilight Shepherd
1 Boros Battleshaper
1 Novablast Wurm
1 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
1 World Breaker
1 Dragonlord Atarka
1 Gruul Ragebeast
1 Balefire Dragon
1 Giant Adephage
1 Utvara Hellkite
1 Spearbreaker Behemoth
1 Moldgraf Monstrosity
1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Terastodon
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Mockery of Nature
1 Myojin of Life's Web

Lands:
1 Command Tower
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Canopy Vista
1 Cinder Glade
1 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Krosan Verge
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Wooded Bastion
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Boros Garrison
1 Gruul Turf
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Kor Haven
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
1 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Strip Mine
1 Homeward Path
1 Temple of the False God
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Vesuva
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Mountain
1 Maze of Ith

Some notes:

Tempt with Discovery is bonkers online. I can't remember the last time I didn't get 3 lands off of it. That's why I run it.

I follow the pi practice of building my Mayael lists a little more on the controlling side.

I packed the list with so much ramp because my last memories of Mayael was being a bit slow. Needed to speed her up, because shit gets real pretty fast online. Goal is to ramp 2 into 4, for hopefully 6 or 7 mana by turn 4.

Maze of Ith is my pet Mayael card. Fatties + Maze + Vesuva = solid fat wall. Any player who extends and can get past that gets Wrathed.

Cyclops of Eternal Fury is for Myojin, Warp World, and other shenanigans you can do by giving anything haste really.

I have the required 30 fat to qualify as a fatty lover. Will sort by type soon.

I feel like I am missing some very obvious stuff.

_________________
Xenagos, God of Revels
Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas


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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Mayael] Dear Mayael...
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-22 12:50 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
In all honesty: I'm not sure I'm a big fan of the Stampede. I can see how it should usually come out great, however, it also feels like overkill. The point I want to cast this at is probably the point where it doesn't really matter anymore how I win. I'd probably play it if I could choose which creatures, but I don't have enough control over that. I don't like See the Unwritten for the same reasons as the Stampede.

I'm not a big fan of your buff fatties in general, though some are great for their protective capabilities (which I wouldn't call "buffing"). On the whole I don't think fatties need to become better at combat.

I like my sweepers to hit creatures first and foremost. I think you may have too few that do that.

I would play Rings of Brightheart before most other shenenigans you include. I would also consider playing more man-lands for early defense and, just because you can, play a snow-covered version of every basic to be fully highlander.

Of course this is a reflection of how I and my group play. I am used to slower games, which leads to me aiming my deck at the late game. In a faster meta you either need to be hitting hard quicker or have the ability to slow others more. I'm not familiar enough with the online meta to tell you what to go for.

I know my personal taste would go towards slowing them down more, so what other early sweepers are there? Nevinyrral's Disk? Oblivion Stone? Day of Judgment? How can I ensure that I have early blockers? (Man-lands, cheaper fatties) Or keep them from attacking? (Dueling Grounds). If I delay them enough I should be able to start playing my game.

Of course that's my preference.

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I'm a gabber and I feel alright
I sleep all day and I dance all night
I'm a gabber and I feel OK
I dance all night and I sleep all day


3 Steps Ahead - I'm A Gabber


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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Mayael] Dear Mayael...
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-23 4:03 am 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
You crack me up pi.

Do you know you've been giving the same advice for 98 pages over 8 years haha?

It's not bad advice, don't get me wrong haha but I remember that speech the first time you commented on my Mayael list way back then! :D

I can't believe you don't like Stampede though either!

It's 6 mana pi! The point you CAN cast it is as early as you can get out and activate Mayael and it almost guarantees you 4 fat. That's a tonne of pressure and unless answered will likely help you close out one player at least.

You likely DO get to choose at least 3 creatures, from your hand at least. You vote wild, opponents likely vote free (since 4 wild votes is a metric tonne of card advantage). So get one free fatty off the top and slam down your 3 best from hand (or 4 if you wanted).

Now, think of that and add Scroll Rack and all the card selection we have to the mix and its not hard to sculpt a very solid set of fat you can drop by hand OR if the vote, for whatever reason goes 4 wild, Rack those back to the top of your library either.

Selvala's Stampede is THE Mayael card. It interacts favourably with everything we are trying to do.

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Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas


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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Mayael] Dear Mayael...
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-23 6:37 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
At least I'm consistent ;).

I have to think about what happens after killing that one player. First of all that assumes those creatures I drop into play live through whatever mass removal my opponents have. Then, they kill someone (they'd probably need multiple attacks, but lets assume they somehow manage). At this point I've just shown the table that I can kill a player out of nowhere. I'm definitely moving up on their hitlist to become top priority. There's very little in the deck that could withstand that kind of pressure, which is why I am concerned about not being able to pick what I put into play. This will also not only influence one game, it will actually influence any future games with the same people as they know that once I hit 6 mana it can be game over for a player (though that may not be as much of a concern online).

I guess what I am trying to illustrate is that while a card can be very strong in a vacuum it may actually be so strong that it leads to worse results because of how your opponents will respond to it.

I very much prefer having a strong, but not dominating, position right up to the end of the game. The Stampede will make me stand out far more than I like, cancelling my ability to manipulate the game through table talk as when you're clearly in the lead people will not be open to your suggestions of going elsewhere with their attacks. Only combos have the inherent capability to overcome this issue as they just end the game on the spot, though they come with their own problems. I'll take slightly weaker, but more consistent, cards any day if that means less attention on me.

I must admit that I interpreted the card slightly wrong in that I thought it could only put into play creatures from my hand, permanents make it a bit more interesting, though not enough.

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I'm a gabber and I feel alright
I sleep all day and I dance all night
I'm a gabber and I feel OK
I dance all night and I sleep all day


3 Steps Ahead - I'm A Gabber


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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Mayael] Dear Mayael...
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-24 2:41 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-19 12:15 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Sacramento, CA
I second everything pi just said.

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Current Decks:
Bruse Tarl / Kraum, Ludevic's Opus
Marchesa, the Black Rose
Mayael the Anima


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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Mayael] Dear Mayael...
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-30 10:04 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
pi wrote:
I guess what I am trying to illustrate is that while a card can be very strong in a vacuum it may actually be so strong that it leads to worse results because of how your opponents will respond to it.


Had a discussion on a similar topic yesterday. I summarized this to "the perfect play is not always the optimal play", thought that might be a good way to remember it.

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I'm a gabber and I feel alright
I sleep all day and I dance all night
I'm a gabber and I feel OK
I dance all night and I sleep all day


3 Steps Ahead - I'm A Gabber


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