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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-04 4:29 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
Inkeyes22 wrote:
Antis wrote:
You brought an idea, and literally everyone told you it's a bad one. Not by prejudice, but by assessing your arguments and dismissing them as flawed. Maybe you should entertain the thought that your idea really wasn't that good.


It is not fair to say everyone... I agree that most feel TA is worthy of a ban, but I have played it off and on for several years in a few decks without complaint. The one I am running now is intentionally watered down, but very fun. That is how I like to EDH.


So your argument is that it's fine because you've been playing it without incident in intentionally nerfed decks?

This was literally just addressed in zimagics post...

Quote:
The opposite is true in that, if you try really hard to not break it, you can make cases for a lot of cards being acceptable, cards that are clearly OP for the average playgroup. Tolarian Academy is OP more often than not but there are cases where I'm sure it's ok in certain decks. The question you have to ask is whether, after watering down the concentration of artifacts in a deck to a level where TA is no longer accidently OP, where is the interest in running Tolarian Academy at all?


If you're intentionally nerfing your deck just to play the card, that's confirming that the card is too powerful to be played unrestricted. If it's not acceptable to play the card unrestricted, there's a very good argument that the card is not acceptable to play at all.


I am not trying to change anything for The whole community, but when someone offered a different opinion that I agree with, and gets ogre-piled, I stepped in.

I feel the banned list should be shorter than most others, the RC feels differently, that is okay.

Not everyone agrees on anything, and that is okay. We come to play, to have fun. Fun is subjective, I.e. what is fun to me is not always the same thing let alone what others think is fun.

No reason for all the vitrol.

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The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-04 4:41 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
@inkeyes While the hyperbole is not literally true, there is still a clear majority opinion. While it is fine to question things, one must still recognize that things are they way they are for a good reason in most cases. There is a trend among people that start "unban X" threads to speak/type in a way that suggests that they believe they are posting some great, format-shaking revelation that only their brilliance allowed them to see, and to ignore the good reasons things are they way they are even when those things are explained to them. That has happened here. A lot. The vitriol is largely due to the apparent inability to comprehend, coupled with an incredibly obnoxious style of speech.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-04 4:58 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Inkeyes22 wrote:
No reason for all the vitrol.


What vitriol? Nothing in my last post was at all negative towards you.

Your argument is the entire reason that the ban list is stated as a suggestion. If you want to play with these cards, you can with your groups permission but these cards are too strong or too warping to play in the average group. It's great that people can play things without exploiting them. That's the best type of players IMO. The average tournament side event or LGS isn't generally filled with those types of players. A banned list is a necessary evil for the most egregious offenders which TA most certainly qualifies. "I've been playing it for years at 20% power level" doesn't really help defend that it's not broken, only that you're not a spike.

The vitriol towards Kiddy is more towards his posting style than his opinions on the card.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-04 5:02 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Epsilon wrote:
The vitriol towards Kiddy is more towards his posting style than his opinions on the card.


And let's not forget that he is a non-english speaker and cannot express his opinions as fluidly as most other posters in the discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-04 5:09 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
zimagic wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
The vitriol towards Kiddy is more towards his posting style than his opinions on the card.


And let's not forget that he is a non-english speaker and cannot express his opinions as fluidly as most other posters in the discussion.


It doesn't take proper grammar and punctuation to cherry pick posts. His native tongue has nothing to do with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-04 7:24 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Epsilon wrote:
zimagic wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
The vitriol towards Kiddy is more towards his posting style than his opinions on the card.


And let's not forget that he is a non-english speaker and cannot express his opinions as fluidly as most other posters in the discussion.


It doesn't take proper grammar and punctuation to cherry pick posts. His native tongue has nothing to do with it.


You mentionned posting style, that includes the ability to express yourself, not just cherry-picking.


And it seems we are once again discussing posters and not cards.

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Scarab God Zombie Horde
Sissay 5c Superfriends
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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-04 9:42 am 
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Joined: 2015-Mar-18 12:55 pm
Age: Drake
zimagic wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
The vitriol towards Kiddy is more towards his posting style than his opinions on the card.


And let's not forget that he is a non-english speaker and cannot express his opinions as fluidly as most other posters in the discussion.

I know plenty of non-english speakers who have far more eloquent posting styles. That's not a valid excuse.

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Sheldon wrote:
The cards didn't just warp the way the games were played, they warped how I was conceiving and perceiving the format. That's the sign of a problem.

Carthain wrote:
The idea that you should be able to build your deck however you want and still be competitive is false, and a bad idea to have. Taken to the extreme, that's like making a deck with no removal in it, and then complaining that you can't win because stuff your opponents play gets in your way.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-04 10:33 am 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
Wolfsbane706 wrote:
zimagic wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
The vitriol towards Kiddy is more towards his posting style than his opinions on the card.


And let's not forget that he is a non-english speaker and cannot express his opinions as fluidly as most other posters in the discussion.

I know plenty of non-english speakers who have far more eloquent posting styles. That's not a valid excuse.

Yes it is, people's skill level at different things vary, it's part of life. Some people are better at things than others.

If the sum of his posts lead you to conclude he is just a low effort poster, then just ignore him. Mocking him is low effort too and just brings you to his level.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-04 2:39 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-15 5:03 am
Age: Dragon
In regards to the last page which seems to be mostly discussing Kiddy's posting style...

zimagic wrote:
I'm going to close this for 24h with a request that, when it re-opens, you actually discuss the topic rather than the posters.

If you've nothing to say, don't say it.


Emphasis mine.

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