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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-03 5:39 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
I am offering a useful alternative that too many of that idea dismiss: Put in the work to create something you love without messing up the current format.


that is of course, your opinion on what people are trying to accomplish here. From my perspective and the perspective of others lobbying for change, we're trying to make it a better format.

Wolfsbane706 wrote:
Swmystery wrote:
Wolfsbane706 wrote:
Just adding onto what Segrus said, but one subreddit does not a community make. There's almost 7800 players in there, true, but you can't seriously believe that accounts for even a majority of the competitive players.


I consider this forum a community- likeminded individuals who are interested in the same sort of games, roughly speaking- and I'm pretty sure we number less than 7.800.

I misspoke. The actual point was the bit about 7800 players not really being a majority.


compared to the main subreddit, wouldnt that still make them something like 25% of the total reddit community (assuming they're also involved in the regular edh subreddit)? It's an inaccurate leap in logic to blow that up to the whole EDH community and assume 25% of us play competitively, but it's the easiest comparison, and 25% is not an insignificant number, majority or not.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-03 8:48 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
and 25% is not an insignificant number, majority or not.

Out of curiosity - at what value does it become an insignificant number? 'cuz, I don't believe that 25% of commander players are competitive commander players. 8%-10% ... that I could see. But I don't see those numbers are being representative of commander players as a whole. The biggest issue is you're missing people who are kitchen-table players. Those who like playing, but aren't invested enough to join a forum/site/subreddit. And I imagine those numbers are close to 100% casual, which is why I don't really accept that 25% value you gave.

Also - I'm not saying 8-10% is insignificant or not - I was just curious where you draw the line.


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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-03 1:15 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
Carthain wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
and 25% is not an insignificant number, majority or not.

Out of curiosity - at what value does it become an insignificant number? 'cuz, I don't believe that 25% of commander players are competitive commander players. 8%-10% ... that I could see. But I don't see those numbers are being representative of commander players as a whole. The biggest issue is you're missing people who are kitchen-table players. Those who like playing, but aren't invested enough to join a forum/site/subreddit. And I imagine those numbers are close to 100% casual, which is why I don't really accept that 25% value you gave.

Also - I'm not saying 8-10% is insignificant or not - I was just curious where you draw the line.

^^^^Truth.

Also, I don't know if you've ever played with kitchen table players - real Timmies - but they love power cards. Like, a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-03 1:57 pm 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
and 25% is not an insignificant number, majority or not.

Out of curiosity - at what value does it become an insignificant number? 'cuz, I don't believe that 25% of commander players are competitive commander players. 8%-10% ... that I could see. But I don't see those numbers are being representative of commander players as a whole. The biggest issue is you're missing people who are kitchen-table players. Those who like playing, but aren't invested enough to join a forum/site/subreddit. And I imagine those numbers are close to 100% casual, which is why I don't really accept that 25% value you gave.

Also - I'm not saying 8-10% is insignificant or not - I was just curious where you draw the line.


I did say it wasn't a good leap in logic, just that at face value it was what the numbers seemed to suggest (i.e. if reddit is an accurate representation of the community as a whole, 25% is approximately the number, which obviously reddit isn't, but face value). And to be fair, it depends on how you define kitchen table, because i'm sure a lot of people here would consider themselves kitchen table players.

I would totally believe 25% is accurate simply based on how many communities there are (not just reddit) devoted to it, and that there are only 3 types of players to begin with, I don't imagine EDH is nothing but a majority of timmies and johnnies.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-03 3:15 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
because i'm sure a lot of people here would consider themselves kitchen table players.
That doesn't alter the standard definition of it (as generally put forth by WotC -- you know, the people who have the best stats on this available, and set forth what knowledge we have about how populous such a group actually is.)

Gath Immortal wrote:
...and that there are only 3 types of players to begin with, I don't imagine EDH is nothing but a majority of timmies and johnnies.

Wow. That's a load of crap logic.

Just because someone is a spike doesn't mean that they are involved enough in the format to visit forums. Being a spike just gives a broad reason for why a player plays the game. In this case, it's to try and win and show his opponents that he can best them, or best the challenges that they set forth for themselves. A Spike could easily be playing tribal Thalids in commander - because they find that's the challenge that they want to try to win through and feel they will prove themselves by doing so. Nothing about being a Spike means you want to play "competitive" commander.


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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-04 6:52 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
I am offering a useful alternative that too many of that idea dismiss: Put in the work to create something you love without messing up the current format.

that is of course, your opinion on what people are trying to accomplish here. From my perspective and the perspective of others lobbying for change, we're trying to make it a better format.
Exactly why I didnt say making it worse. The issue I have with you specifically, not anyone who disagrees or lobbies for change , is that I dont think you care if its better for a lot of people, just that its better for you. You dont seem to acknowledge any other POV, and flame anyone who disagreed with you.

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niheloim wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-04 9:56 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
Carthain wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
and 25% is not an insignificant number, majority or not.

Out of curiosity - at what value does it become an insignificant number? 'cuz, I don't believe that 25% of commander players are competitive commander players. 8%-10% ... that I could see. But I don't see those numbers are being representative of commander players as a whole. The biggest issue is you're missing people who are kitchen-table players. Those who like playing, but aren't invested enough to join a forum/site/subreddit. And I imagine those numbers are close to 100% casual, which is why I don't really accept that 25% value you gave.

Also - I'm not saying 8-10% is insignificant or not - I was just curious where you draw the line.


I did say it wasn't a good leap in logic, just that at face value it was what the numbers seemed to suggest (i.e. if reddit is an accurate representation of the community as a whole, 25% is approximately the number, which obviously reddit isn't, but face value). And to be fair, it depends on how you define kitchen table, because i'm sure a lot of people here would consider themselves kitchen table players.

I would totally believe 25% is accurate simply based on how many communities there are (not just reddit) devoted to it, and that there are only 3 types of players to begin with, I don't imagine EDH is nothing but a majority of timmies and johnnies.

You also have to take into consideration that the competitive players are the ones who will be more inclined to join and participate in forums, so they will have more representation on the forums (as a percentage of their whole) as opposed to casual players who might not even visit forums at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-04 2:19 pm 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
I am offering a useful alternative that too many of that idea dismiss: Put in the work to create something you love without messing up the current format.

that is of course, your opinion on what people are trying to accomplish here. From my perspective and the perspective of others lobbying for change, we're trying to make it a better format.
Exactly why I didnt say making it worse. The issue I have with you specifically, not anyone who disagrees or lobbies for change , is that I dont think you care if its better for a lot of people, just that its better for you. You dont seem to acknowledge any other POV, and flame anyone who disagreed with you.


and the issue I have with you is the frequency and antagonistic nature of your responses to my posts over the past few months feel less like an ideological disagreement and more like harassment, to the point where I've begun to genuinely dislike posting on these forums. Because of you. I might defend my personal opinions loudly and over zealously, but I don't doggedly pursue others who disagree with me and chase them down and repeatedly force them into uncomfortable situations..

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-05 4:32 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Nothing about being a Spike means you want to play "competitive" commander.
This is definitely true. I am Spike. I have 0 interest in playing games of commander where I get prizes based on killing my opponents as quickly and efficiently as possible. (That's what Modern and Legacy are for.)
Carthain wrote:
people who are kitchen-table players. Those who like playing, but aren't invested enough to join a forum/site/subreddit. And I imagine those numbers are close to 100% casual, which is why I don't really accept that 25% value you gave.
This is super true. Even if Reddit specifically weren't a trash fire, it requires substantial investment in the format to seek out any forum at all. If heavily invested players made up the majority of Magic players, Time Spiral would have been the best selling set of all time. (It wasn't.)

I would say no more than 15% of all commander players are members of any forum, and that remaining 85% is probably all non-competitive players. So I would guess the real proportion of competitive EDH players is somewhere around 3-5%.

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