Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Nov-18 4:28 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-26 4:39 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jan-15 3:37 am
Age: Hatchling
First off, this isn't a post asking to ban Cyclonic Rift. I know that isn't going to happen because for some reason people defend that card.

This is about asking "why do people play Cyclonic Rift?"

It's the most horribly unfun legal card I can imagine. Playing it does one of two things:
1) Wins you the game
2) Makes all the other players not have fun.

The only answers to the card are:
1) Play blue
2) Happen to have a Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast in your hand (I mean, we all recognize it's said that when I play mono red I have to run those cards only because Psyclonic Rift, right?_

I really cannot understand why people play this card other than they can. Do people think this card is actually fun?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-26 4:44 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jan-15 3:37 am
Age: Hatchling
And just for funsies-- if you look at EDHREC, you'll notice that 25% of all commander decks run this card.
https://edhrec.com/cards/?q=psyclonic-rift

All the cards above it are artifacts so they can be run in anything, but Cyclonic Rift is so ubiquitous that everyone that runs blue runs it because they like their opponents to hate the game? I don't know. If you look at the top 14 cards, you'll notice that all the others aren't huge game influencing board wide cards, they're just fun cards for the table or at least single target cards.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-26 8:48 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
(I have decks that are not on EDHREC because they were never listed online, it's absolutely impossible for EDHREC to accurately reflect all Commander decks, it's in fact heavily skewed by its data source (online lists from certain sources) and therefore shouldn't be used to conclude anything about Commander as a whole from a pure analytics point of view).

When I play Cyclonic Rift it actually tends to do neither of the 2 things you listed. I usually play it defensively, for example when being attacked or when somebody comboes, as such it doesn't win me the game but instead keeps me from losing it. In the combo scenario most people would actively applaud a combo being stopped, it may prevent the combo player from having fun, but realistically they are the problem in this scenario. As for when being attacked: there tend to be winners and losers in this scenario, certainly the attacker is not going to be fond of it, but other people being attacked are, similarly other permanents being hit will have people being in favor of their removal and people not in favor. Some games this would balance out on the unfun side, some games this would balance out on the fun side, simply depending on the board state when the card is played.

Now would I argue that it is a fun card? No. I wouldn't argue that it's an unfun card either though. It's simply at the same level as other mass removal: a necessary part of the game to keep other shenenigans in check.

You deal with it like you deal with other mass removal: don't overextend and make sure you can build up a reasonable boardstate in a fair amount of time. The more you extend the harder you will be hit when mass removal is played, in most metas it is a given that it will be and it's only a question of time, you should already be doing this. Commander is seen as a slower format in which you can more easily play cards with a higher casting cost, as a result recovering from a Rift will be a slow process in comparison to competitive formats where you'll never have the time to get the mana for these cards. A critical look at your mana curve might be in order if you find that you cannot quickly re-deploy.

Now you are saying you are used to people winning because of a Rift. In that case of course the question becomes why they have a board state that lets them? Why are they allowed to have such a board state in the first place? Perhaps more mass removal should be played to prevent this situation.

Basically what I am saying is that Rift is best dealt with by considering your playstyle and your meta's and adjusting as needed.

_________________
I'm a gabber and I feel alright
I sleep all day and I dance all night
I'm a gabber and I feel OK
I dance all night and I sleep all day


3 Steps Ahead - I'm A Gabber


Automatically add card tags to the card names in any text:
http://manabase.com/autocard.php


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-26 9:05 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2015-Mar-24 8:21 pm
Age: Drake
Rift to me is one of those cards that I'm surprised isn't banned. Very one sided wipe at instant speed. Here lately, it makes me feel bad to even play it but it's too good not to. If it were banned I'd probably just be like "that's fair" and move on.

Idk, it really skirts the edge. It also boils down a lot to how you use it. I'm like Pi, I tend to only use it defensively.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-26 9:05 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
twesterm wrote:
I really cannot understand why people play this card other than they can. Do people think this card is actually fun?

People run it for the same reason they run cards like Wrath of God. Or more on-point, why they run Evacuation - it's a strong card that can save your bacon or seal a win. However, the idea that it's the least fun card legal in the format doesn't seem to hold up under scrutiny.

First off, using it as a win-con is like using Insurrection as a win-con - you certainly can, but conditions have to be right. In this case, you have to have enough of a board state to start killing people and probably counterspells to stop one of your opponents from using a hard boardwipe as soon as they untap, unless you have so much power on board you can kill everyone (or everyone is already almost dead and you're mopping up). While this isn't the hardest thing in the world, it's not like you just windmill slam this sucker the second you draw it and it's game over.

Secondly, is having your stuff bounced really that unfun? Compared to the vast array of legal cards that hose you way worse? Things like Blood Moon or Contamination, for example, say that most of the players at the table are hamstrung or can't play at all. Is that really more fun than re-casting your stuff? ETB effects are pretty popular - a Cyc Rift means people are getting a second dose of whatever ETB's were on the board. If you fire this thing off defensively (something I've seen quite a bit, BTW) then the only player who's really disadvantaged is the token guy, because he's gonna have a lot more trouble re-creating his board.

As far as dealing with it goes, there are ways to handle cards other than countering them. For example, you can play around them by not overcomitting to the board (something you should probably be in the habit of not doing anyways, because it's not like Cyc Rift is the only boardwipe you're likely to face) and you can put pressure on players that you think might have it to force them to blow it early and not let them slow-roll it to the point where it is GG. You can also ramp balls (something many an EDH player does anyways) to the point where your board is only going to be off the table for a turn cycle.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-27 12:29 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
I've been firing off a foil Rift since RtR launched.

Contrary to popular belief, it doesn't go in everything with Islands (there are often better choices like Capsize). Thing is, when a player is going off with a combo piece on the stack, or is swinging for 80 damage, it has a habit of keeping players from getting too far ahead. As an offensive tool, it's often extraordinarily lackluster by comparison to it's contemporaries (heck, they just printed Baral's Expertise.)

The best way to fight Rift is to play cards that your opponent doesn't want you to keep playing, like Flametongue Kavu or Thragtusk. Every color has them in excess. In decks without a number of "artifacts matter" cards, I tend to stick to a "class" of artifacts called "Eggs"- which you can sacrifice for value at a moment's notice (Mind Stone, Conch Horn, or my favorite, Shrine of Piercing Vision.)

In a recent play session, I got rifted 4 times and proceeded to rebuild a board each time until I could nail the opponent's Rift with a Stonecloaker. Recurring the Rift ate up so much of his gas that he couldn't recover.

Much like Wraths, Rift is silly easy to play around- and in decks where I do play it, I often pack Into the Roil, and Aetherspouts because Rift often just has to be played as a Disperse- where Spouts is far more of a blowout.

_________________
niheloim wrote:
Wall of Chat. 2U
Creature- Wall

Defender
Wall of chat exceeds at using a lot of words to mischaracterize opposing view points.

Warp Riders (Ephara Solar Flare)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-27 1:33 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Necrachilles wrote:
Rift to me is one of those cards that I'm surprised isn't banned. Very one sided wipe at instant speed. Here lately, it makes me feel bad to even play it but it's too good not to. If it were banned I'd probably just be like "that's fair" and move on.

Idk, it really skirts the edge. It also boils down a lot to how you use it. I'm like Pi, I tend to only use it defensively.


Sometimes games just have to end. Building up a board into an end of turn Rift, untap & attack to win still requires you to build up that board. Players just need to keep the card in mind all the time as one of those things that can happen in Commander.

Also, being the only one to get hit by that Rout someone was sandbagging just for your post-Rift army is a huge pain in the rear.

_________________
Current decks:
Sydri's random pile of cards with "Artifact" on them
Scarab God Zombie Horde
Sissay 5c Superfriends
Morophon Eldrazi (5C Devoid)
Grenzo's Goblins


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-27 8:53 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Firstly if you could decide on a spelling for cyclonic rift and stick to it that would make my teacher sense calm down a bit. Spelling it wrong is one thing, spelling it right and wrong alternately is just mean :P

As to the topic, as has been stated above, if rift is winning the game then you have allowed the board state to get to that point well before the rift resolves. EOT rift, kill you is not an especially uncommon play, but the rift is just an enabler, perhaps you cant plan to beat the cyclonic rift (however guttural response or reiterate is a pretty funny way to do so), but you should be able to answer the threats in play.

Also you could try more ETB effects and less reliance on artifact mana if possible. Getting your stuff bounced is annoying, but it is less annoying when you get a bunch of extra value when you replay them.

_________________
Favourite Deck:
Ghost Council of Orzhova

Playing Online:
Noyan Darr & Sedris Zombie Guy


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-28 2:51 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
A lot of you are implying that you even get to replay everything with ETB effects. More often than not, it's done EOT before the rift player combo ' s off. It's not necessarily that they built up enough to reach critical mass, sometimes what they'll play that following turn makes unthreatening pieces into an enabler and then you're screwed.

If anyone gets to play anymore, they literally have their entire game invalidated by a single instant, and have to rebuild from nothing. If you happen to have a Reclamation Sage, sure, you might get to recast it and do something relevant. Not going to be the case the majority of the time.

It's not a fair comparison to call rift "just a sweeper", because the closest comparisons are things like Plague Wind, In Garruk's Wake, Insurrection and Vandalblast. All of which are sorcery speed, hit the entire board, or only target 1-2 permanent types. A one sided nuke at instant speed, with only a single hard blue for a color restriction? It's ridiculous, plan and simple. It should at least have a 3-4 hard blue requirement like vandalblast... at least then it might be a little harder to capitalize on the blue combo pieces the player is likely to run afterwards. As is, it's too easy to windmill slam into any deck that even splashes blue


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-28 2:59 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
Vandalblast is a single red mana in both modes.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-28 3:19 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
crimsonwings3689 wrote:
A lot of you are implying that you even get to replay everything with ETB effects. More often than not, it's done EOT before the rift player combo ' s off. It's not necessarily that they built up enough to reach critical mass, sometimes what they'll play that following turn makes unthreatening pieces into an enabler and then you're screwed.

I don't think most decks running rift play combos... Especially if rift is so widely played.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-28 5:29 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
MrCool wrote:
I don't think most decks running rift play combos... Especially if rift is so widely played.

And aside from that, most combos don't give a damn what's on the table, so EoT rift into "oops, I win" combo is unlikely / not necessary.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-28 8:47 am 

Joined: 2011-Feb-15 7:09 am
Age: Drake
Some folks use rift to protect their wincon in an unfun way, but I think most just want generic answers to anything bad that might happen.
It's asymmetric.
It's a lot cheaper than many alternate cards to cast, e.g plague winds.
It's an instant.
It deals with indestructible stuff.
It's not unfun if you use it to stave off certain doom.
That's why it gets jammed in so many decks.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-28 6:02 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2015-Mar-24 8:21 pm
Age: Drake
zimagic wrote:
Necrachilles wrote:
Rift to me is one of those cards that I'm surprised isn't banned. Very one sided wipe at instant speed. Here lately, it makes me feel bad to even play it but it's too good not to. If it were banned I'd probably just be like "that's fair" and move on.

Idk, it really skirts the edge. It also boils down a lot to how you use it. I'm like Pi, I tend to only use it defensively.


Sometimes games just have to end. Building up a board into an end of turn Rift, untap & attack to win still requires you to build up that board. Players just need to keep the card in mind all the time as one of those things that can happen in Commander.

Also, being the only one to get hit by that Rout someone was sandbagging just for your post-Rift army is a huge pain in the rear.

Fair. Sometimes when the board gets really cluttered and no one is doing anything other than durdling, a rift is a nice change of pace.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-28 6:16 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Necrachilles wrote:
zimagic wrote:
Necrachilles wrote:
Rift to me is one of those cards that I'm surprised isn't banned. Very one sided wipe at instant speed. Here lately, it makes me feel bad to even play it but it's too good not to. If it were banned I'd probably just be like "that's fair" and move on.

Idk, it really skirts the edge. It also boils down a lot to how you use it. I'm like Pi, I tend to only use it defensively.


Sometimes games just have to end. Building up a board into an end of turn Rift, untap & attack to win still requires you to build up that board. Players just need to keep the card in mind all the time as one of those things that can happen in Commander.

Also, being the only one to get hit by that Rout someone was sandbagging just for your post-Rift army is a huge pain in the rear.

Fair. Sometimes when the board gets really cluttered and no one is doing anything other than durdling, a rift is a nice change of pace.


Don't mean to chime in late, but everytime someone mentions "suprised Rift isn't banned", I immediately pose the question "Wouldn't they ban Capsize first?" Not to mention the Great Whale, Treachery etc. packages that make Caged Sun, or Gauntlet of Power or High Tide make enough mana to Capsize lock players outright.

I suppose Capsize locks are less common in newer playgroups, but they tend to be far more oppressive than Rifts by entire leagues- and many decks just can't beat multiple Capsizes every turn with their own development.

_________________
niheloim wrote:
Wall of Chat. 2U
Creature- Wall

Defender
Wall of chat exceeds at using a lot of words to mischaracterize opposing view points.

Warp Riders (Ephara Solar Flare)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Carthain, Uktabi_Kong, Viperion and 21 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: