i play psyclonic rift for the art

Several, you said you have several decks which scoop to CR, you have almost mentioned one card, a far cry from several decks.

So quite aside from the fact that "Zadra" is not a magic card, even if I make the logical leap that you meant Zada, that is not a deck type, that is the commander. What is the game plan that simply loses to CR?

You are playing red, so play a few reiterateeffects and a few wheel effects. When you begin to suspect the opponent has rift, fire off a reforge the soul and make them use it out of sequence. Rift is good most of the time, but if the caster doesn't get the first action afterward then it's a lot worse for them.

It sounds like your deck is as weak to rift as it would be to planar cleansing and austere command, so I dont really see how it is an argument against rift as much as an admission that your deck has a fatal flaw which you choose not to protect against.

You see, protecting "everything" should be hard, and often is, but your own argument for Rift is that while powerful, you can help mitigate your losses by playing a conditional board blink to keep your creatures in play or run removal that is often sorcery speed and doesn't necessarily target... sooo, basically bring some neosporin, for the stab/bullet wound you're about to receive. It'll help a bit, but you're still going to get the worst of it. Rift is basically a one sided Upheaval that doesn't touch lands. Upheaval is banned because of what it does, it restarts the game. Rift does a damn fine job of that with the exception of you being able to "maybe" build back up and "maybe" be able to survive long enough to get back in the game. All the while the Rift player goes on as if nothing happened and everyone else forgot they were playing a social game for a varying amount of turns.

I have several janky decks that are devastated by CR, but, again, I am aware that they are that vulnerable because of the way they are built, and I accept that. I might have exaggerated a bit,
I don't just scoop to CR, but there are situations where there's nothing really I can do after CR resolves, because I just can't rebuild fast enough. Zada, Hedron grinder is one of those decks, and it loses badly to CR if I can't red elemental blast it or something like that, because in mono red there just aren't that many tutor effects to find protection, or Ghostway effects. Sometimes you just wanna build a deck that does something really cool, but you can't make it very strong, and then you accept that the deck will only do well in half of the games you play with it. I guess I could build only decks that can handle everything, but games would become quite boring if you always see the same commanders / color combinations around.

To clarify, I don't think Rift should be banned or anything, I just don't like the card because it's too easy. I don't like cards like Insurrection for the same reason, Capsize at the very least needs some work to get to inf mana before it becomes lame.

And no, also again, you cannot simply put Cyclonic Rift at the same level as cards as Austere Command or Planar Cleansing when the reset button is onesided, at instant speed, and only needs one blue mana so only requires the absolute minimum of dedication to blue.

Anyway, OP asked for reasons why people play it, I gave the reasons I hear around here, I don't hate people for playing it, but I never will.

Many argue that mass destruction like Wrath of God is symmetrical. Those arguments remind me a lot of how back in the day people said the same thing about Balance. The things is that you don't play such cards if you don't expect to get the better end of the deal. This is either because you expect to be better at recovery or because they don't hit you as hard. Even when you're just playing mass removal defensively because you're under presure you still get the better end of the deal because you live rather than die that turn (and if they can kill you their board is probably better).



Agreed .



Ah, you meant killing a single player. Yes, this might happen. I find that often lands like Mishra's Factory or Maze of Ith make sure you are not the one being attacked. If everyone has them it becomes harder to avoid being attacked, but, that also means that the player could face the revenge of a lot of man-lands coming his way, so he may not feel comfortable attacking with enough to take somebody out. Also many people would be motivated to work together to prevent the attack if there are multiple Mazes too. This is definitely a diplomatic situation where first you want to avoid being the player being attacked, then, if you are want to work with others to take the CR player down a peg and finally work together to put the hurt on him. If CR really is as disliked as you suggest it shouldn't be too hard to convince the other players to go along.



Sure, but that's working on the assumption that people want to not play CR. I can't be surprised that people use a better option if it's available. People like efficiency in their cards, the options you mention just wouldn't be an alternative to CR in my eyes (Rout or even Starstorm could be in my view because they hit so much more).



Consider the argument I started this post with. Honestly I rarely if ever see any mass removal be symatrical. Now I will grant you that many are less lobsided than CR is, but, many combinations of several cards are worse. I can understand the frustration though, but to me it just doesn't feel different from repeated mass removal, something that is pretty easy to put together even if you'd need multiple cards to do it. Asking for any 1 card that does the same seems to miss the point of the discussion: due to tutoring, combinations of cards can be put together easy enough to accomplish similar results. If you really must have one card: how about Sun Quan? He allows for the same kind of alpha strike.

The fortunate side effect of CR bouncing is that you don't need to keep those cards in hand: they'll be conveniently returned there anyway.

What sorcery speed removal do you think have I suggested? 'cuz I've suggested none of that. If you're just going to misunderstand and just assume that something dumb is what is being proposed instead of asking for clarification -- it shows a bit about how you think, and a bit as to why you can't cope with the card being played.


While the comparison about what they do is similar -- in practice, not resetting the lands is a huge difference. If you can't see that, I don't think you'll ever see why Rift isn't the problem you claim it to be.

Think rift is bad? Try fighting through Kederekt Leviathan and Restoration Angel.

I like that.

Most mass creature destruction is sorcery speed and mass forced sacrifice effects are in short supply and usually sorcery speed... even then its usually not targetted removal. You could maybe hurt a voltron more easily withthat sort of retaliatory play, but it's far from guaranteed. You proposed cards like Ghostway to protect your creatures in response to Rift or a forced sac effect, both of which are outside the box thinking for sure, but it still doesn't address the state it leaves everyone in minus the rift player. Without a board to speak of.




Resetting lands is a huge difference I admit, but the comparison of how polarizing the card can be is closer than you realize/want to admit. A sorcery speed 6 drop that resets the entire game is awful, but a 7 mana instant that effectively restarts the game for all but one player is huge, and terrible. You Rift, you get to keep everything you've worked for and protected for multiple turns while everyone else is scrounging to rebuild and find out what they're discarding at EOT.

In Garruk's Wake, one sided, 9 freaking mana, and you get to keep anything that's indestructible, artifacts and enchantments. So it does suck to be on the receiving end, but it's unlikely that you'll have to contend with much more than the current Wake players field, it doesn't negate 5+ turns of effort, and effects like Propaganda/Ghostly Prison/Lightmine Field/etc. Are still in play and can make a difference.

Also, the difference between recovering from something like Wake vs Rift is night and day. I also noticed that you hadn't mentioned the values of the card as I had earlier. Do you consider a bump in rarity from Vandalblast at a 5 mana sorcery at uncommon to blow up opposing artifacts somehow justifies the difference for only 2 colorless more in Cyclonic Rift? That 2 mana and a rarity bump justifies an instant speed reset that affects all opposing nonland permanents vs the 1 that Vandalblast can touch? If your answer is yes, then I fear your assessment of what cards could and should cost for their effects is skewed.

No it doesn't. You keep your lands, and that's a big deal. And the cards go to hand. That's a drawback for the rift player, in comparison to sweepers that actually send things to the graveyard. Granted yard recursion is common and widely played, but it takes more effort than simply re-casting things. I've seen peoples entire boards come back the turn after a rift was cast. Usually I don't even see people discard - they drop any mana rocks they had back out, then use those to play one or two more things, and keep on truckin'.

With Upheaval, you float a bunch of mana, bounce everything, and then re-cast a bunch of mana rocks and/or threats, leaving everyone else literally re-started and you with a board.

When this happens, rift is very comparable to taking an extra turn. Differences are your opponents get to draw a card and potentially get etb effects, but you played a take an extra turn as an instant.

To be really fair, Crim's argument seems to reduce to "I shouldn't HAVE to play around Rift", where ours reduces to the "Devil you know" principal. While I'm definitely not wanting to draw conclusions about anybody as a player, it does seem probable that most people who object to rift haven't been involved in playgroups or EDH pre-RTR, where primary blue decks have to rely on things like Temporal Fissure in the Armageddon arms race.

Ontop of that, we may just have different ideas about the sanctity of the banlist itself. The format places emphasis on housebans- so ban worthiness for the official list means something extreme (to be fair though, I'd ban Jhoira, Deadeye Navigator and Top- but the counter-arguments to each of those is super valid- so I just ask playgroups to agree on a list of softbans so we can all be comfortable.)

@Crim-
When I say your deck needs to take 3 rifts, I simply mean that mass bounce effects and flash enablers are super common in EDH. It's just a thing that comes with deck building. You don't want to be especially weak to any kind of major wipe- whether it's Planar Cleansing or Devastation Tide. It will happen, often at instant speed.

@MrCool-
Looking for opportunities to Time Walk opponents is something every color in Magic tries to do- especially with blowout instants.

Never did I say to combat Rift with mass creature destruction. I think it was Sid saying if more of it gets played, then you over-extend less, thus minimizing the impact Rift has.

And "mass forced sacrificed effects" is again nothing I mentioned. I just said to use sacrificed effects (such as those that require a sacrifice as a cost) in order to trigger things like gravepact to try and reduce how much of a board the Rift Player will have once the Rift resolves.

You shouldn't jump to conclusions, as you're missing a lot of help in the suggestions people are giving.


I'm sorry... Having all your creatures remain in play (or, blink back into play) after the Rift doesn't count as having a board?

And what's wrong with trying to equalize the asymmetry of the Rift? Make it so it's not as useful for the Rift player to cast?


It doesn't effectively restart the game. That's the jump/assumption you are making that doesn't hold up.

It doesn't "effectively restart the game". Your land drops remain. The cards in hand may be more than 7 (giving you more options than at the start of the game.) You can still cast late-game spells ... something you can't do without a godhand at the start of the game.


And you've also probably set yourself up as the archenemy -- not something insignificant in a 4 player game.

This is my only issue with Rift- when one player drops it and sets themselves up and I have to watch the one guy at the table still able to pressure the Rifter sit there and durdle because they're afraid of retribution... y'know, because losing the game is better than getting attacked... or something.

That's relying on the idea that your opponents do nothing but simply replay all their stuff. In other words, oftentimes everything your opponents had coming right back is a best case scenario. If they wrath your board and then play only part of what they had, or wrath your board and still replay everything they had or play everything they had plus more, you're coming out potentially worse off than when you started.

Obviously that isn't going to be the case all the time, but it's more frequent than some may want to admit. Cyc Rift is a lot like Insurrection. It's a powerful spell that will sometimes break the game open if conditions are right. Otherwise it's just a big dumb effect.