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 Post subject: Re: This Year's Sol Ring Thread
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 1:17 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Sovarius wrote:
specter404 wrote:
Nekusar is a deck that I would not jump to sol ring first. It probably makes the cut in the end, but the colour intensity of 3 colour decks would encourage me to value signets ahead of sol ring. Honestly I'd rather play pyramid of the pantheon on T1 in nekusar than sol ring.

If your deck is ridiculously mana intensive and you don't have fetches and shocks, i would still disagree. Sol Ring also casts signets on t1 too, which i find kind of funny.

Pyramid is a pretty bad card though. Even if it's good in your deck due to little mana fixing, compare to Sol Ring, which lets you cast any 2-color 4cmc spell on turn 2 still. If your deck is durdly enough that Pyramid is a good card then i hope your opponents are playing that kind of game too.

I just ordered a Pyramid for Atraxa. I think its going to be great, and by that I mean quirky fun.

On turn 1 a pyramid isn't terrible. You can still use it turn 2 to... um... play a sol ring.

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 Post subject: Re: This Year's Sol Ring Thread
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 4:09 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
With the number of wheels Nekusar runs, I would never be unhappy to have a Sol Ring in play.


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 Post subject: Re: This Year's Sol Ring Thread
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 5:13 pm 

Joined: 2016-Aug-15 1:21 pm
Age: Drake
Sovarius wrote:
specter404 wrote:
Nekusar is a deck that I would not jump to sol ring first. It probably makes the cut in the end, but the colour intensity of 3 colour decks would encourage me to value signets ahead of sol ring. Honestly I'd rather play pyramid of the pantheon on T1 in nekusar than sol ring.

If your deck is ridiculously mana intensive and you don't have fetches and shocks, i would still disagree. Sol Ring also casts signets on t1 too, which i find kind of funny.


My Nekusar deck is actually not what most would think. I don't always need to even play Nekusar to make it scary, I just mill people, try to tutor out Forced Fruition, Keening Stone, or Price of Knowledge, and then close out the game. I replaced every wheel card I had in it with some of the strongest mill I could find. I think it benefits more from Sol Ring then a fancy new version of Gilded Lotus, though I recently upgraded it's mana ramp (Sol Ring is still there).

But it sounds like most people use a Sol Ring if they have one. I would think that any card that shows up in over 2/3rds of decks that can run it would be considered unhealthy for the format. I guess it just comes down to where the line is drawn, and that's up to the RC. I know Sol Ring has been reprinted so many times, but should how many times a card's been reprinted (and in what sets) matter when considering if it should be banned?

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-Nekusar, the Mindrazer-Hardcore Mill Deck
-Nahiri, the Lithomancer-Monowhite Soldier/Equipment Deck
-Sharuum the Hegemon-Esper Artifact Themed Deck
-Karador, Ghost Chieftain-Kamigawa Spirit Reanimator Tribal Deck
-Zedruu the Greathearted-Predictability is Weakness Themed Deck
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 Post subject: Re: This Year's Sol Ring Thread
AgePosted: 2017-May-18 1:02 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Drrakus wrote:
I would think that any card that shows up in over 2/3rds of decks that can run it would be considered unhealthy for the format.

Why? Almost every single green deck I've built has had Beast Within and Krosan Grip, with E Wit and Acidic Slime not being too far off either. Have you ever seen a non-theme deck with white in it that didn't include Swords to Plowshares? The same can be said for plenty more cards in each color, and only gets more true as you add colors. Mirari's Wake I've seen in pretty much every GWx deck I've played against (the only reason I don't play it being I don't own one). Vindicate is another card that is playable in literally every deck that can run it. And don't forget cards like nonbasic nods as well. Even in more competitive formats like Legacy Brainstorm is in virtually every deck that can run blue. Not too big of a problem though.


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 Post subject: Re: This Year's Sol Ring Thread
AgePosted: 2017-May-18 1:54 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Is the number of printings relevant to banning a card?

Yes, in some instances.

Library of Alexandria- Banned mostly because it is so expensive and goes into any deck with little opportunity cost. Were this card as cheap as Reliquary Tower I don't think it would be banned, though that's debatable.

Ancestral Recall- Banned because it is so expensive. Its the best at what it does, but were it a 25¢ common I don't think it would be banned (though I don't doubt we would have a "This Year's Ancestral Recall Thread).

If Sol Ring were a $150 and hard to come by it might be banned. But because it has been printed so often its now only a few dollars. I know Mana Crypt is expensive, but its been printed a few more times and isn't anywhere in the same demand as would be the arguably better Sol Ring were Sol Ring at the same scarcity.

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 Post subject: Re: This Year's Sol Ring Thread
AgePosted: 2017-May-18 5:00 am 

Joined: 2016-Aug-15 1:21 pm
Age: Drake
Drrakus wrote:
Can it be said that Sol Ring has 'numerous combinations' with other commonly played cards? Who defines what a combo is? Can any card played off an early Sol Ring be considered a combo? Do mana rocks combo with 'everything'?


This is what I was thinking of. Cards like Sundering Titan, Sylvan Primordial, and Griselbrand are, to my knowledge, banned not because they combo with something, but because they're just too powerful in the format.

On the other hand, cards like Painter's Servant, Panoptic Mirror, and Leovold are, to my knowledge, banned because of what they combo with. Not entirely sure about Panoptic Mirror though, but that's what I assume it was banned for.

So the big question for me is, does a mana rock like Sol Ring 'combo' with most everything?

Quote:
Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry. Commander is a socially welcoming format with a vast cardpool. These two traits clash when it comes to certain early Magic cards, even if they would possibly be acceptable in their game play. It's not enough that the card is simply expensive. It must also be something that would be near-universally played if available and contribute to a perception that the format is only for the Vintage audience.


I'm wondering at what point a card's monetary cost becomes irrelevant to how near-universally played the card is? If any of us were to give advice to a person completely new to the commander format, what would we say about Sol Ring? I know I would tell them that Sol Ring is the best mana ramp in the format because it's a lot cheaper then stuff like Mana Crypt, has a lower mana cost then most nonland land fetches, and can be thrown it a deck of any color or play style (partly because a commander's mana cost goes up every time it gets played from the command zone). Am I alone in that opinion?

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Commanders:
-The Ur-Dragon-Five Color Dragon Tribal Deck
-Nekusar, the Mindrazer-Hardcore Mill Deck
-Nahiri, the Lithomancer-Monowhite Soldier/Equipment Deck
-Sharuum the Hegemon-Esper Artifact Themed Deck
-Karador, Ghost Chieftain-Kamigawa Spirit Reanimator Tribal Deck
-Zedruu the Greathearted-Predictability is Weakness Themed Deck
-Nissa, Vastwood Seer/Nissa, Sage Animist-Monogreen Land Based Deck


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 Post subject: Re: This Year's Sol Ring Thread
AgePosted: 2017-May-18 9:11 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Drrakus wrote:

I'm wondering at what point a card's monetary cost becomes irrelevant to how near-universally played the card is? If any of us were to give advice to a person completely new to the commander format, what would we say about Sol Ring? I know I would tell them that Sol Ring is the best mana ramp in the format because it's a lot cheaper then stuff like Mana Crypt, has a lower mana cost then most nonland land fetches, and can be thrown it a deck of any color or play style (partly because a commander's mana cost goes up every time it gets played from the command zone). Am I alone in that opinion?

Do you mean at what dollar amount does Ubiquity create a perceived barrier for entry?

I'm not sure there is a line. As the cards banned for this reason also carry a lot of baggage outside of cost and playability. A mox is like a unicorn... mythical and legendary to many people. Some have never even seen a unicorn let alone ridden one. If Unicorns were legal... who knows what it would do to EDH.

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 Post subject: Re: This Year's Sol Ring Thread
AgePosted: 2017-May-18 11:43 am 

Joined: 2016-Aug-15 1:21 pm
Age: Drake
niheloim wrote:
Drrakus wrote:

I'm wondering at what point a card's monetary cost becomes irrelevant to how near-universally played the card is? If any of us were to give advice to a person completely new to the commander format, what would we say about Sol Ring? I know I would tell them that Sol Ring is the best mana ramp in the format because it's a lot cheaper then stuff like Mana Crypt, has a lower mana cost then most nonland land fetches, and can be thrown it a deck of any color or play style (partly because a commander's mana cost goes up every time it gets played from the command zone). Am I alone in that opinion?

Do you mean at what dollar amount does Ubiquity create a perceived barrier for entry?

I'm not sure there is a line. As the cards banned for this reason also carry a lot of baggage outside of cost and playability. A mox is like a unicorn... mythical and legendary to many people. Some have never even seen a unicorn let alone ridden one. If Unicorns were legal... who knows what it would do to EDH.


I'm not very good with words, but what I'm trying to ask is...kind of the opposite I think. Like how cards become 'disruptive' if they're too powerful, when does a card become too 'disruptive' because of how often it shows up? The only example I can think of is in another game I play, on the esports scene three characters were almost always either picked or banned in multiple regions because they were the 'safe' picks (and there were thousands of dollars on the line). One by one, they got nerfed to the point that one is now a 'back up' pick, one basically was deleted from almost every level of play, and the third is only still relevant because area-of-effect invulnerability is hard to beat. They were nerfed because they showed up in almost every professional match.

My question is, at what point does a card show up so often that it is a problem in a similar way? When does a card's availability/unavailability become irrelevant if it is a problem in a different way? Sol Ring doesn't cost a lot, is relatively easy to find, and can fit into literally every deck. Since Sol Ring can fit into every deck, there's a bigger number of decks a ban on Sol Ring could affect, where something like Prophet of Kruphix getting banned only affected the decks that could run both blue and green. A colorless artifact can impact more decks then most other cards, so at what point would Sol Ring, or any card that can fit into 100% of commander decks, become too commonly used that it needs a ban? (regardless of availability/unavailability or monetary cost)

I'm hoping that explains my question...

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Commanders:
-The Ur-Dragon-Five Color Dragon Tribal Deck
-Nekusar, the Mindrazer-Hardcore Mill Deck
-Nahiri, the Lithomancer-Monowhite Soldier/Equipment Deck
-Sharuum the Hegemon-Esper Artifact Themed Deck
-Karador, Ghost Chieftain-Kamigawa Spirit Reanimator Tribal Deck
-Zedruu the Greathearted-Predictability is Weakness Themed Deck
-Nissa, Vastwood Seer/Nissa, Sage Animist-Monogreen Land Based Deck


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 Post subject: Re: This Year's Sol Ring Thread
AgePosted: 2017-May-18 11:50 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I'm not sure when a card becomes worthy a ban. The only card banned in recent years that upset our meta was emrakul. And we stopped playing it before the ban came down.

But it seems that when a card becomes central to the meta to the exclusion of other strategies and fun it gets banned. Sol Ring isn't doing that.

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 Post subject: Re: This Year's Sol Ring Thread
AgePosted: 2017-May-18 2:14 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
But it seems that when a card becomes central to the meta to the exclusion of other strategies and fun it gets banned. Sol Ring isn't doing that.

I think I'm around about the same space WRT Sol Ring. I would not be sad if it got the axe assuming it was not used as a precedent to ban other cards, but I also dont see it as particularly destructive in the multiplayer setting.

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