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 Post subject: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2017-May-22 8:16 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-25 1:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
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I've seen this card played three times now in Commander. It ended the game in all three of these occasions.

However, it was probably not in the way you think.

I recall that one of those games ended instantly after the card resolved. The players simply didn't bother to vote and started packing because they knew there was no chance of beating its caster. In the other two games, well, things got ugly. In one of them everyone voted time just to see the player have the trouble to take all those turns in a row while everyone else went on doing more productive things. In the other game, people gave mixed votes, which prompted a huge discussion over why it's a good/bad idea to give the caster extra turns, until eventually everyone conceded and looked for another game.

From the moment this card was first printed, I knew it smelled trouble so I steered away from playing it. I never thought it was broken because, unlike other extra turn cards printed recently, it exiles itself after being cast. I'm guessing many other players thought the same way as me, since it was released nine months ago but I've only ever seen it cast three times since then. However, after witnessing its effect on gameplay, I'm curious to hear other people's opinions about it. I'm on the fence about this card, in that I don't think it deserves to be banned, but I wouldn't be the least sad if it did.

What are your experiences and thoughts about Expropriate?

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 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2017-May-22 10:08 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Definitely not banworthy. After the first 2 or 3 times you play with/against it, it becomes very clear that 90%+ of the time the caster should vote time and everyone else should vote money. If that happens it essentially becomes a self-exiling Time Warp plus a Blatant Theivery, which is insanely good but not quite broken. If anyone else votes for time, it's at worst an undercosted Time Stretch with an additional upside.

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 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2017-May-22 11:49 am 

Joined: 2017-May-09 1:04 pm
Age: Wyvern
This card definitely feels bad to be on the receiving end of it being cast, but it's pretty similar to if some one had double mana and cast a blatant thievery. They just get access to their mana twice, they get an extra draw, and they can swing with creatures they take on their extra turn.

If I were to pick the top cards in each color I hate seeing, they would be:

Black - Rise of the Dark Realms
Red - Insurrection
White - Armageddon
Green - I love everything green, green is the best
Blue - Expropriate (edit: this is actually tied with Cyclonic Rift)

But I don't feel any of these are banworthy. There may be specific decks that can abuse them, but for the most part spending 9 mana should give you a great edge against your opponents. This card exemplifies that.


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 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2017-May-22 9:55 pm 

Joined: 2015-Mar-04 12:43 am
Age: Drake
page04z wrote:
If I were to pick the top cards in each color I hate seeing, they would be:

Black - Rise of the Dark Realms
Red - Insurrection
White - Armageddon
Green - I love everything green, green is the best
Blue - Expropriate (edit: this is actually tied with Cyclonic Rift)

Vorinclex in Green perhaps?

I agree with others, I don't feel Expropriate is ban worthy.


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 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2017-May-23 1:01 am 
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Joined: 2014-Aug-16 4:42 am
Age: Wyvern
So basically it's Blatant Thievery + Time Warp for 2 extra mana, except it exiles so you can't recur it. It doesn't instantly win you the game, but it does give you one extra turn and a whole bunch of new permanents to try to do so.

I suppose if people vote to give the caster even more extra turns, they get what they deserve.


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 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2017-May-23 4:45 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Maluko wrote:
The players simply didn't bother to vote and started packing because they knew there was no chance of beating its caster.

Maluko wrote:
In one of them everyone voted time just to see the player have the trouble to take all those turns in a row while everyone else went on doing more productive things.

Maluko wrote:
In the other game, people gave mixed votes, which prompted a huge discussion over why it's a good/bad idea to give the caster extra turns, until eventually everyone conceded and looked for another game.

So in all three games everyone just decided to not play it out? I think you guys had some preconceptions about the card that lead to the game ending rather than the game ending from actual game play. I don't think it's fair to judge a card without playing with or against it.


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 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2017-May-23 9:02 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I think the best argument for banning would be on philosophical grounds. Is this the sort of big-mana spell that we want in EDH or is it antisocial and so exemplary of the sort of thing to avoid?

I don't think it should be banned for power or philosophical reasons, but, of the two, power-level is the weaker reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2017-May-23 9:55 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
How are you considering that card to be antisocial?


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 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2017-May-23 10:02 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
How are you considering that card to be antisocial?

Time Warp and friends are about as much of the definition of "antisocial" as it gets. Expropriate happens to be by far the most interactive version of it, but still.

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 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2017-May-23 11:40 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Carthain wrote:
How are you considering that card to be antisocial?

I don't personally think it is, but I can see how others do.

Some thing that whenever you take an extra turn you're excluding others from play and being selfish.

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 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2017-May-23 11:47 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
Some thing that whenever you take an extra turn you're excluding others from play and being selfish.

That seems to line up with what Uktabi_Kong said too.

Seems.... a narrow focused way of looking at time walk cards to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2017-May-23 12:04 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Yes. I think it is too narrow. It might be rather practical though. I've generally found that most people taking extra turns are doing it... wrong (?) Its been more, "Lemme take 5 turns in a row and dig for a way to win" than "I'm taking an extra turn for the benefits of an extra turn"

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 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2017-May-24 1:42 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
I look at it this way:

Extra turns are for securing the win. I don't like them, but I understand. HOWEVER, if you take multiple extra turns to try and FIND a win, then you're being anti-social. Same with anyone who builds a deck that prevents others from playing the game. You're not playing Commander then, you're playing Singleton Vintage. Also, you're being an asshole playing that way in a social format.

I play Commander to have a good time, and my deck building strategies reflect that. My rules for myself are:
1. No extra turn cards
2. No stax effects that completely prevent others from playing the game (I do allow myself to use cards like Nevermore and the like)
3. No infinite combos by design, though the occasional unintended ones creep in. (I absolutely hate Mike/Trike combos and the like)


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 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2017-May-24 2:13 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Expropriate is a card that should be handled through the social contract. In many groups I've been a part of, this is a card that is easy to kill through- but in others it's a right nightmare. Consider also things like Tooth and Nail or Survival of the Fittest. In certain playgroups, it's just more appropriate to suggest Fauna Shaman and Natural Order over the former two- since some groups (typically involving a few less experienced players) tend to run especially light on removal (putting too much on certain members of the group to stop some cards from wrecking the game.)

As far as extra turn cards, the permissive nature of the card makes it unspectacular, where you could just be casting Time Stretch.

As for my own views on extra cards. I prefer "difficult to recur" ETs, with an emphasis on the player using them being responsible for taking their ET fast, or eliminating one or more players on that turn. For that reason, I usually suggest Part the Waterveil, Beacon of Tomorrows, Medomai the Ageless etc. over durdly, Explore oriented ETs like Temporal Trespass, Time Warp, and Temporal Mastery. But again, it's about the social contract more than anything- if a player likes to use durdly ET cards, then they have to play an appropriate pace- or I'll simply refuse to play with them; and they also have to deal with the fact that I'll be less "gentle" with cards like Yosei, the Morning Star if we're going to play the game at that level.

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 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2017-May-24 2:30 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
tgambitg wrote:
Extra turns are for securing the win. I don't like them, but I understand. HOWEVER, if you take multiple extra turns to try and FIND a win, then you're being anti-social.

I can see one other useful purpose for them -- to allow you to develop your board, and then 'end' with mana up to respond to what others do. But ... these turns can be done pretty quickly. For anyone taking an extra turn and just digging more to try to figure out what to do ... I can see those as being annoying.

... not sure I'd call it anti-social, but I think that's more of a label ... I think we (generally) agree on what is an acceptable use of those types of cards vs non-acceptable.


In my group we actually haven't seen extra turn effects for a while, which may be why I'm probing/asking why people are calling them anti-social. I know there's a lot of stuff like fork, twincast, wild richochet, and reiterate that gets played in my group which tends to dissuade people from playing extra turn effects.

Now I'm kind of curious to throw a couple walk effects into my blue deck, and see how it turns out in our meta. To see if it's useful, if it gets countered/redirected/copied, and how people react to them.


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