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MTG Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander • View topic - Add reserve list on next ban list

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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-28 2:45 am 

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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-28 2:51 am 

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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-28 3:06 am 

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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-28 3:27 am 

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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-28 4:08 am 

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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-28 4:10 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-28 5:12 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
From the sounds of things -- it seems like you want to build the "best version" of your deck/commander that you can.

Well... if you can't afford a specific card, then the "best version" that you can build for that commander just doesn't include that card, does it?

Also - if you can't afford that card, can the other people you play with? If not -- then nobody is really at a disadvantage are they?

Plus, for the expensive cards that you do have (or current cheap cards you have that become expensive) - being the only one (or one of them) around who has that card ... that actually seems like a pretty cool environment. It's almost like having a signature card. Or being a wizard with their own personalized spell that nobody else can figure out.

That sounds pretty cool to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-28 8:15 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-28 9:06 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA

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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-28 12:57 pm 

Joined: 2017-Aug-27 4:02 am
Age: Hatchling
We can stop here and review it after few more year later.
maybe 1 day we will see Angus Mackenzie going up to $500
If you check all the product for pass 2 year, you can easy find that Wiz is changing their product to target commander player such as master peace and the coming iconic mater.
Why a casual format need to stay with a list that are not able reprint and not been use 99% of the deck ?


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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-28 6:39 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
Even if Angus does hit $500, so what? There are 17.000 Magic cards, in those few years we're probably closer to 20.000, why do you either have to own Angus or not allow others to play with him if they do?

Yes, Wizards is targetting Commander; this actually makes the format cheaper as many cards get reprinted and you can buy the decks with the fancy new cards you want rather than having to crack packs or buy from retailers. The decks are pretty cheap for what you get.

The question you should be answering is why a format should exclude the Reserved List? There are plenty of arguments provided that address why the format should include them that you are not addressing, yet you provide no convincing argument on why it should exclude those cards. There is no benefit to the format as a whole to adjust based on your local situation when there are easy workarounds for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-28 8:16 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-28 10:13 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon


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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-28 11:16 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I live in London, and I play at a local gaming store with a dozen or two people playing Commander most days and varying people each time. I also play at a local commander group of a couple of dozen members that has biweekly meetups. I've never yet seen anyone play a card from the reserved list, either in my own games or glancing at other peoples' games. That isn't to say people never do, but it's not really a common thing that I've seen, let alone a necessary thing.

Many people play with the precons -- those are about £30 retail in London, or $50-60 in Australia when I was living there. Maybe they've modified them a bit to do something they like better.

The last deck I built (this Mathas one) is valued at $150, specifically just because I had some more expensive cards available. I then swapped some cards out for equivalents to reduce it to $85 for others wanting to build a cheaper version. Some of the most expensive cards were there just because I had them: I had a instead of a , and a instead of a , instead of an . I don't consider the substitutions to modify its power level that much: Ravos is easier to get back, but Palace Siege is harder to remove in the first place, etc. If I owned absolutely none of its cards I think I'd tune it to something worth about $100 before buying it, give or take $10, because I just wouldn't include the shocklands or manlands and that immediately chops off $20+.

When I build Commander decks I specifically avoid needing more than one or two cards in the deck that are worth more than $5, unless I happen to already have them. I've been playing since ~2013 so I only have a handful of those, and not these crazily expensive old cards. I have bought a very small number of cards worth approximately $10 for deckbuilding (like for a -1/-1 counters deck). I have bought, I think, three cards total that were $20-40 -- one of those was -- and I changed my mind about using the other two and plan on selling them. The only other expensive-ish card I have any plans to buy is , the price of which has finally fallen to around £10.

Some people have fairly powerful decks. They don't need to spend a lot to do it -- or or can get pretty bonkers in a deck valued only ~$100. One of the most brokenly powerful cards in a Zurgo deck is and that costs fifty cents.

The commander players at the places I mentioned are conscious that decks have power levels (we say the precons are mostly something like a 2-2.5 out of 5, and then from there manage to gauge how much more or less likely our deck is to win than any precon). If there's a lot of people we can consciously self-arrange to play with decks of a similar power level, and I personally have the most fun playing around that precon strength level. People with a significantly more powerful deck at the table quickly turn a 4-person free-for-all into a 3v1 match with the target on themselves. If I'm playing against someone with a far too powerful deck for me, then after I lose I thank them for the game, shake their hand, and get up to find a table more suitable for my decks' power level and/or find a new table.

----

Basically what I'm getting at here is I've never seen or experienced a real price barrier here in Commander, nor is the Reserved List a barrier or even relevant (because its cards aren't important). If someone does spend crazy amounts to make their deck crazily powerful powerful, that's not necessarily better for them -- they won't have many people willing to play with them a second time, except perhaps people with similarly powerful decks. If someone played a against me, I wouldn't bat an eye any more than if they'd played a or a . There are no Reserved cards I have ever needed. If a deck needs crazily expensive cards to function and there are genuinely no alternatives, I don't build that deck and instead refocus on the thousands of reasonably affordable cards.

Price and power isn't even a real issue on the reserved list. (reserved) is cheaper than (not reserved). And I've never seen anyone play Tarmogoyf in Commander either and don't expect to. There are some crazily powerful cards on the reserved list, but e.g. the Mox Anything cards are banned in Commander.

If Angus Mackenzie became $500+ I wouldn't care. I don't need him to play. If anyone else has him and uses him as their commander, great, that'll be fun to see -- but I'm not really worried about him being required. He's not something crazily powerful. He dies to a like any other creature.

If you think you need to buy Reserved cards or expensive cards... well, you don't. If you think everyone else is doing so, they probably aren't. If you think your deck has to be crazily powerful, it really doesn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-29 2:29 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Just to weigh in with some anecdotal evidence...

I have been playing since 1997, I just moved and one of my new neighbors has been playing since Origins. He came over one day and wanted to play 1v1, he had been bragging about how good his one deck was (, so I built / deck. I easily had over $2,000 worth of cards on the battlefield/in my graveyard at the end and lost.

I have many decks that have expensive cards in them, but I would still estimate my win/loss percentage as 1/x where x is how many players there are (so about 20-25%). If anything when I drop original Duals, they are at a disadvantage, they get blown up way more than my shocks or pain lands... but I still play them as I want to justify still keeping them around.

Are you really going to remove or from the list of playable (somewhat debatable) commanders? I mean and are pretty broken, right?

I personally would love to see get played, or . is very underplayed too!


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