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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-01 7:47 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-14 4:04 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Boston, MA
cryogen wrote:
spacemonaut wrote:
cryogen wrote:
Why not just ban her then to save people the inevitable argument about whether she can find cards outside the game?

You can't win, cryogen. If you ban her now, she'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

Fuck, you're right. Then she'll just be able to fetch herself!


And then with only 12 Blood Artists, an Ashnod's Altar, and a GP's worth of Spikes waiting outside the game, you can go infinite! Wait, this seems more like a job for Johnny, Combo Player.

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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-01 9:34 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
cryogen wrote:
spacemonaut wrote:
cryogen wrote:
Why not just ban her then to save people the inevitable argument about whether she can find cards outside the game?

You can't win, cryogen. If you ban her now, she'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

Fuck, you're right. Then she'll just be able to fetch herself!


Un-ception!! :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-01 2:27 pm 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
cryogen wrote:
Sheldon wrote:
No, as we've mentioned elsewhere, Spike doesn't work in the format.

Why not just ban her then to save people the inevitable argument about whether she can find cards outside the game?

Serious question though, because it wasn't clear (to me at least) in the announcement: what is the plan as of now on January 15th? Go back to normal with silver bordered cards not legal, or is this a trial unban to see how it goes thing?


The plan is to go back to normal. This is just a celebration of a new UnSet.

I disagree that this is out of line with any philosophy over temporary bans/unbans. It's not an evaluation or test. It's not "we're going to unban it with an unclear decision afterwards". People who want to invest in the cards know exactly how long they're good for.


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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-01 3:47 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jun-29 11:19 pm
Age: Egg
papa_funk wrote:
cryogen wrote:
Sheldon wrote:
No, as we've mentioned elsewhere, Spike doesn't work in the format.

Why not just ban her then to save people the inevitable argument about whether she can find cards outside the game?

Serious question though, because it wasn't clear (to me at least) in the announcement: what is the plan as of now on January 15th? Go back to normal with silver bordered cards not legal, or is this a trial unban to see how it goes thing?


The plan is to go back to normal. This is just a celebration of a new UnSet.

That's really unfortunate, IMHO. I really was hoping you'd keep at least the silver-bordered cards that aren't completely absurd. Not that my group will be that hard to sway on this, I think. I've already blackmailed people into letting me play Old Fogey in dinosaur tribal by making the alternative Elesh Norn.


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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-01 4:00 pm 

Joined: 2017-Dec-01 3:20 pm
Age: Hatchling
Willbender wrote:
Or, you could just look for games where the other players agree on no silver bordered cards. Odds are you'll be able to get at least a few people to be willing to play with you if you ask nicely.


This problem with this is that what the Rules Committee puts out by is considered the default for 99% of player. This is especially true when when, like myself, you play most of your games during events at an LGS such as FNM or Monday Night EDH. I played in one such event tonight in which the store owner allowed Silver-Boarder cards even though only two players were even aware of this announcement. It was not a fun experience at all as people had to avoid saying either "counter" or "spell" to avoid a Gotcha Mechanic, or losing a game because it was impossible to say "Thank You Sir may I have another" infinite times. And while seeing Cheaty Face snuck into play once was amusing the first time it gets annoying the 4th or 5th time in a single game.

The problem is only going to get worse in upcoming weeks as players will have to worry about things such as being penalized for wearing denim or glasses (which isn't even an option for me), having people shoot at your Commander Deck with Nerf Guns and damaging your cards, or getting into arguments over what is allowed in a Spike Deck since there is no clear guidance (I can already see some jerk trying to bring in an Ante Card).

Playing with Silver-Boarder cards is the kind of thing that a playgroup should agree to in advance, not be allowed by default.

The cards are not allowed in any constructed formats for a reason. Let the Silver-Boarder Cards stay in drafts, cubes, special events or playgroups of like minded players. Don't make ridiculousness the default.

Anyway it looks like I will be playing Modern, or just taking a break from MTG as a whole for the next six-weeks

Whip


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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-01 4:26 pm 
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Joined: 2014-Sep-30 6:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I can't help but feel like the Rules Committee is missing the point here.

As you can guess from my lack of activity in recent months, my EDH group has fallen apart, as most of them have graduated and the rest have just kind of lost interest. So the only times I've played any Magic at all recently is at the nearby LGS. The problem is that at an LGS, you rarely can use home rules or ban lists, so most people use the official ban lists here.

You guys know this, and you think that this means that no one will get to use the new Un-Cards unless you make it an official ruling, and you are actually right. The problem is, for the 90% of people who don't want to use Un-Cards, you have just ruined the next month.

First, there is the problem that many players don't want to buy silver-bordered cards that they can only use for a month, and many who don't want to have to change their decks to accommodate them. You may argue that they don't really need to do this, but lets be honest, that's bullshit. Silver-Border Magic decks that are built well will completely destroy black bordered decks built for the same format, especially in a format like EDH where you have more time and cards at your disposal. And that just makes the games frustrating for a lot of people. Which brings me to my second point.

Some people just don't like playing sliver-bordered Magic, and of the ones who do, most want to play shorter games, not long ones like in EDH. And more importantly, in the time shortly after Unstable comes out, it won't be hard for the people who do want to play silver bordered EDH to find others that will. But with this rule, it will now be frustrating for people who don't want to play this kind of format to avoid it. And this is the real issue I have. This change does not make it easier for people who want to play silver border EDH to play it, it just makes it harder for people who don't to avoid it. EDH has a reputation as a wacky format, but it is NOT supposed to be a joke format, it is supposed to be a format that encourages customization and creativity. The is change undermines that.

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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-01 6:22 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
DarksteelElephant wrote:
The problem is, for the 90% of people who don't want to use Un-Cards, you have just ruined the next month.

Isn't the idea to let people have fun?

Commander has cards become legal in the format as soon as the pre-release for the set (before they are officially legal in Standard). It's always been about (in part) letting people play with their new cards. This is no different.

Normally people can't play with these "wacky" cards. Sure, for people who don't like them, the next month won't be as fun. But for someone who has a dislike for combo - they have to live with that at all times. Why is a one-month allowance for the latest feature release too much for you to bear?


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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-01 11:51 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
papa_funk wrote:
cryogen wrote:
Sheldon wrote:
No, as we've mentioned elsewhere, Spike doesn't work in the format.

Why not just ban her then to save people the inevitable argument about whether she can find cards outside the game?

Serious question though, because it wasn't clear (to me at least) in the announcement: what is the plan as of now on January 15th? Go back to normal with silver bordered cards not legal, or is this a trial unban to see how it goes thing?


The plan is to go back to normal. This is just a celebration of a new UnSet.

I disagree that this is out of line with any philosophy over temporary bans/unbans. It's not an evaluation or test. It's not "we're going to unban it with an unclear decision afterwards". People who want to invest in the cards know exactly how long they're good for.

Thanks for the response. Knowing that it isn't a trial run thing makes me feel better about the announcement.


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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-02 3:43 am 
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A celebration without Ashnod's Coupon? Tssss...

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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-02 8:27 am 

Joined: 2013-Feb-03 7:15 am
Age: Drake
cryogen wrote:
Thanks for the response. Knowing that it isn't a trial run thing makes me feel better about the announcement.


If anything, it makes me feel worse about the announcement. If it was a test phase, then you're not telling people "buy these cards, but there's a 0% chance they will remain legal. This just feels like yanking people's chains.


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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-02 1:15 pm 

Joined: 2010-Mar-10 1:31 pm
Age: Dragon
I'm gonna cross post what happened today here:

so,today I played in a game with uncards including Nerf War, when I mentioned it was banned this morning the player who had asked if he could still use it, I said I was fine with it for one game. He used it informing me that he had tested both a small four shot nerf gun and his larger capacity one using his most expensive deck and he said that if he felt okay with someone shooting that deck, we should okay. He also pointed out that he wasn't going to be one of those players who pull out the missile or the other larger Nerf guns.

My concern was mainly the fact that my sleeves being new were still slippery, but as it was he was only able to knock three off. And it also made his tribal dino deck legit since he uses Grim lock for it. He also bought some dollar store toys for his mishra's toy workshop and even asked if my B.F.M was for trade..it isn't.

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trappedslider wrote:
EDIT: so if i somehow manged to get down to 1 life,played Repay in Kind followed by Decree of Annihilation then it owuld be bad evil juju?

That's not how magic works. You can't equate cards and situations linearly like that!


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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-02 7:19 pm 
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Joined: 2015-May-06 3:41 am
Age: Wyvern
papa_funk wrote:
The plan is to go back to normal. This is just a celebration of a new UnSet.


I intend to partake in the celebration. And to the brothers and sisters opposed, like Spacemonaut mentioned earlier. I think you'd be missing out. I'd invite you to celebrate with me, and the rest of us that will be celebrating. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-03 9:40 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Something is different hence the sky is falling and everything is doooooooomed!

For nearly 20 years people playing with silver bordered cards in EDH have house ruled them in. For a few weeks people who dont like silver bordered cards have to house rule them out, seems fine to me.

If you're the kind of person that is going to quit edh forever because of this, you probably wouldn't have lasted very long anyway, acceptable losses. This isn't really the format for people who abhor trying new things.

If you're the kind of person that is looking for ways to be a dick with silver bordered cards, then you're probably a bit of a dick and I'm going to put you into the acceptable losses category. Papa funk put it very well, you are still expected to abide by humanity. The game is still played by people, so if your opponent wants to do something to damage your cards in order to force a concession, then give them the concession, tell the shove their deck in a place that is both uncomfortable and not conducive to good gameplay, and go find some people that aren't jerks.

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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-04 12:16 am 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
I have two points to contribute:

1. Blacker Lotus and the card referring to nerf guns should be banned ASAP. Same goes for some cards in Unstable like The Countdown is at One.

2. I would like to quickly point out that temporarily unbanning cards and temporarily legalizing cards are two different things.

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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-04 12:30 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MMLgamer wrote:
I have two points to contribute:

1. Blacker Lotus and the card referring to nerf guns should be banned ASAP. Same goes for some cards in Unstable like The Countdown is at One.

2. I would like to quickly point out that temporarily unbanning cards and temporarily legalizing cards are two different things.


The Nerf Gun card is banned: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18754

Papa_funk's position on Blacker Lotus seems to be "if they really want to tear up a card to win, let them." https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/7 ... e/dqnp2gk/

I don't see what the issue is with The Countdown. (It's a subgame but you start at 1 life and the goal is to get it over with asap.)

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