Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Aug-22 11:39 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-25 3:46 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
I believe 1000% that decksturbating is a player problem

Good point. Let's ban players. Oh, wait....

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something major, but isn't that exclusively a player problem? Not that I run multi-tutors often, but when I do I make damn sure that I know exactly what packages in the deck they can fetch and do all of that thinking before I ever put them against a real player. Even with a recursion engine going on this is the kind of thing that you should be able to either have predicted beforehand or figured out pretty quickly. It's just straight-up discourteous to the rest of the table not to understand what's in your own damn deck.

Even when you know exactly what you want, actually finding it can still take forever, becasue of the singleton nature of the game. Crack a Krosan Verge and know you want your Breeding Pool and Temple Garden? You still need to find those 2 specific cards in a stack of around 90. Even with top-notch decision making, repeated hulk recursion still eats loads of time.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
In a deck built to abuse it, Hulk can break games by no other means than it entering the battlefield and dying. It's like T&N in that way.

Precisely - it's just like another card that has frequently been cited as in need of banning.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
And any card can be insane when it gets recurred for value over and over. Kokusho, Primordials, Prime Speaker Zegana, Great Whale, Sharuum, Ashen Rider, Gray Merchant, Yosei, Rune-Scarred Demon, Terastodon, Ulvenwald Hydra, literally any creature when paired with Stalking Vengeance... even smaller cards like Sad Robot can cause massive game-winning value when recurred over and over.

Yes. And some of those cards are banned because of the unpleasantness they cause when recurred over and over. There is definitely a line, beyond which it's really not OK for people to be able to do something over and over again. IMO, Hulk is on the wrong side of that line. It's a card that you have to intentionally build your deck very suboptimally to not break.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-25 11:34 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi, your arguments are hard to swallow coming from someone who wants Gifts to remain on the ban list list. You said Gifts can combo easily without trying (or make overpowered play very easily), and then defend a different multitutor as if their fair applications are different? It's pretty easy to go straight to combo with Hulk or become disproportionately favored to win. In this way, these cards are very similar, and i don't think your defense of Hulk is consistent with your position against Gifts.

Why would you defend one over the other?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-27 5:59 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
Uktabi, your arguments are hard to swallow coming from someone who wants Gifts to remain on the ban list list. You said Gifts can combo easily without trying (or make overpowered play very easily), and then defend a different multitutor as if their fair applications are different? It's pretty easy to go straight to combo with Hulk or become disproportionately favored to win. In this way, these cards are very similar, and i don't think your defense of Hulk is consistent with your position against Gifts.

Why would you defend one over the other?


Not speaking for Uktabi- I'm inclined to agree with him.

The problem simply is, that even in fair usage, getting power out of Hulk reliably requires support cards (Ashnod's Altar and co.)- which changes the timescale it's played on completely. This is to say, that in both fair and combo decks- the Hulk is less likely to be a play that a player can just throw out to get ahead. The Hulk's slowness, combined with the format's absolutely nutty number of means of preventing the Dies trigger means that there is some amount of telegraphing to an optimal Hulk play- there is none to Gifts Ungiven- it just outclasses Intuition, Mystical Teachings, and every other flavor of card in it's class relative to both being in one of the highest technical speed tiers (which makes it more difficult to manage,) the sheer card quanity and selection it provides (often acting as Intuition with an Entomb strapped to it for a single colorless mana. Intuition itself being a card I consider worthy of ban consideration for similar reasons)

Rather- Gifts supports entire archetypes, Hulk needs to be supported by it's archetype- they're both multitutors- but their behaviors are radically different (honestly, from where I sit- the comparison is like "Unban Griselbrand because Stroke of Genius isn't banned"- or "Unban Prophet because Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, and Seedborn Muse aren't banned".)

Most bans in EDH have a contextual precedent- most unbans are done purely on contextual changes to the cardpool at large, the RC's goals in upholding the philosophy, and reducing the number of dissatisfying or anti-climactic games. With Gifts, the main argument I've seen for unbanning it that doesn't fly in the face of probability, or speed concepts- is simply how long it has occupied the banlist for EDH; but in truth, that's more because it has a centralizing power similar to Karakas and Sylvan Primordial in most groups that disregard the ban (which is something you can totally do, if your playgroup agrees.)

Why do you think Gifts should be unbanned? Is there any definitive experiences you've had that have convinced you of this, or is it some kind of principal thing?

_________________
niheloim wrote:
Wall of Chat. 2U
Creature- Wall

Defender
Wall of chat exceeds at using a lot of words to mischaracterize opposing view points.

Warp Riders (Ephara Solar Flare)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-27 9:21 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Mr Degredation got a lot of the reasoning I have, although he argued a bit more specifically than I would have. I'll just put my reasoning in a concise numbered list, on which I can elaborate if challenged.

1. Hulk searches for creatures with a CMC <= 6. Gifts searches for literally anything.

2. Hulk is 7 mana, requires a sac outlet or other way to die, and depending on the board state can be answered by an exile/tuck effect, Stifle, or GY hate. Gifts' only answer is a counterspell, it's 4 mana, and it is at instant speed.

3. For Hulk to function as a multi-tutor, the things you actually get are progressively weaker. Outside of decks that run Dryad Arbor or Ornithopter it's rare for Hulk to tutor up more than 2 creatures off a single activation, and if they do it's usually something like multiple Llanowar Elves variants plus one medium-sized creature. Gifts tutors up four cards and they all can be as powerful of cards as you want.

4. Hulk is playable in creature-based decks and is really good in ones that have a lot of small creatures and/or recursion. Gifts is really good in every blue deck ever built.

And the fourth one I think is a big reason why I don't think it's fair to compare Hulk to Gifts. I personally see Hulk as more similar to cards like Sylvan Primordial or Griselbrand, where the debate is really over whether or not such a strong effect should be allowed to exist in the format at all. Gifts on the other hand is much closer to cards like Demonic Tutor or Swords to Plowshares where you get so much value for so little investment that your deck is objectively weaker if you don't include it. Thankfully, tutoring for a single card or exiling a single creature tend not to be game-breaking effects. Searching up four cards at instant speed is, which is why a card that does that with such efficiency should be banned. We'd still be discussing Hulk if was 8+ mana with a bigger body or something because the death trigger effect is the important part. Gifts on the other hand probably wouldn't even be a problem if it cost a little more or was slightly weaker in some other way.

_________________


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-01 7:09 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
Can we forget Hulk's unbanning for just a second? I only brought up Hulk because his unbanning didn't line up with the "changes need to be profitable" argument, and so far, I've heard no arguments that prove profit as opposed to merely proving no loss. Having said that, now that Hulk is unbanned, there's no unringing a bell that's been rung.

This topic was originally about mana rocks, and I was specifically arguing for Mana Crypt because it skips you ahead to your turn 3 curve with no guaranteed downside. I also called for Flash because it's the worst early turn combo. When it comes to plays that make winning inevitable, the earlier a player can do it, the harder it is to stop. That's why Flash Hulk or Flash Woofall Primus or Flash Rector is far more disgusting than a play like Tooth and Nail that takes nine mana.

_________________
.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-01 9:22 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Probably call for Flash in a different thread.

_________________
Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Carthain, Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 34 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: