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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-27 9:07 am 

Joined: 2011-Mar-07 4:24 pm
Age: Drake
tgambitg wrote:
They may be weak commanders, but they can also be fun commanders to play, so why should they be excluded?

They AREN'T! They just have to play 18 lands - and potentially more after dominaria and whatever comes next. There are lots of decks that play 18 lands or fewer on PURPOSE.

Also I guess it's personally preference but they both look incredibly boring to me. Karn has more legs than hope but at the end of the day 2 of his abilities just draw cards, which is already available on loads of other planeswalkers.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-27 10:09 am 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
Swmystery wrote:

No, you're actually dead on. You're just talking about the wrong Tamiyo- Field Researcher is busted in half when she can ult straight away (at least, when she's in the Command Zone)...


still not as bad as the myriad of broken combos already legal in the format.


I am in favour of lowering the total number of problem cards in the format. Aren't you?

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Daretti, Scrap Savant (Red Artefacts).
Prime Speaker Zegana (Simic Voltron).
Rubinia Soulsinger (Bant Polymorphs).
Kess, Dissident Mage (Grixis Treasure).
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper (Jund Apostles).
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls (Mardu Judo).


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-27 3:33 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
tgambitg wrote:
Gavin has already responded that they are figuring out a way to fix the issue, as they had not even foreseen it, and now are made aware of it. So.... Voicing opinions works.

My prediction: Wastes makes an appearance as a singleton in the M19 planeswalker decks, or the W19 decks (with Awakened Amalgam to make it relevant. :lol: )

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Useful threads: Colorless CI landsGraveyard HateRoR's Greatest Hits
My Decks: Zombiepocalypse (Thraximundar) ♦ Thrun stands alone (voltron) ♦ Ashling the Burninator ♦ Doran beatdown (treefolk/plant tribal) ♦ Mine! (UB theft/clone) ♦ Vampire Beatdown (Edgar Markov) ♦ BW Enchantments (Daxos the Returned)


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-28 3:52 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
My hope: by the time of the next block Wastes become evergreen. I'm honestly not sure why this didn't happen after Oath of the Gatewatch to be honest.

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III Omnath, Locus of Mana III Thada Adel, Acquisitor III Geth, Lord of the Vault III Eight-and-a-Half-Tails III Zo-Zu the Punisher III BruseIkra III Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis III Kess, Dissident Mage, III AkriSilas III Grenzo, Havoc Raiser III Ghalta, Primal Hunger III Ambassador Laquatus III Anax and Cymede III Sidisi, Brood Tyrant III Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest III Ghave, Guru of Spores III Zurgo Helmsmasher III Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder III


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-28 4:40 am 

Joined: 2011-Mar-07 4:24 pm
Age: Drake
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
My hope: by the time of the next block Wastes become evergreen. I'm honestly not sure why this didn't happen after Oath of the Gatewatch to be honest.

Well outside of commander players (who up until now haven't cared about standard legality) there's been *nearly* no reason to run wastes outside of formats where OGW is already legal. Which makes them *almost* entirely pointless to reprint without reusing that mechanic.

Ofc they could just say "all basics are always legal" but then they'll have weirdos showing up to standard events with snow lands. Which isn't a huge problem I guess, but there's bugger-all reason to do it. Definitely up until Brawl (and arguably still after it).

If they really feel the need to cater to people who want to run karn as a commander (so they can lose horribly all the time constantly) imo easily the best solution is just print enough colorless lands (maybe in the PW decks so they don't mess with draft). Things will get dicey for a bit when kaladesh rotates so they'll really have to pack a ton of colorless lands into that PW deck. And then once karn rotates, never print another colorless legend or planeswalker ever again.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-28 8:57 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
Himetic wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
My hope: by the time of the next block Wastes become evergreen. I'm honestly not sure why this didn't happen after Oath of the Gatewatch to be honest.

Well outside of commander players (who up until now haven't cared about standard legality) there's been *nearly* no reason to run wastes outside of formats where OGW is already legal. Which makes them *almost* entirely pointless to reprint without reusing that mechanic.

Ofc they could just say "all basics are always legal" but then they'll have weirdos showing up to standard events with snow lands. Which isn't a huge problem I guess, but there's bugger-all reason to do it. Definitely up until Brawl (and arguably still after it).

If they really feel the need to cater to people who want to run karn as a commander (so they can lose horribly all the time constantly) imo easily the best solution is just print enough colorless lands (maybe in the PW decks so they don't mess with draft). Things will get dicey for a bit when kaladesh rotates so they'll really have to pack a ton of colorless lands into that PW deck. And then once karn rotates, never print another colorless legend or planeswalker ever again.



Jeez man... Tell us on the doll where the Colorless Commander touched you.

Getting a LOT of anger about them from you.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-28 9:39 am 

Joined: 2011-Mar-07 4:24 pm
Age: Drake
tgambitg wrote:
Jeez man... Tell us on the doll where the Colorless Commander touched you.

Getting a LOT of anger about them from you.

Lol fair.

I think mostly it annoys me because I want brawl to be successful because it sounds like a lot of fun, and it would resolve a lot of my problems with commander as a format, and it's receiving a lot of pushback. And on top of the people who are claiming it's a cash grab, or a rip off, or that rotating formats are inherently evil...we've also got people complaining about minuscule problems like being forced to play a few lands short for a couple commanders that clearly aren't going to be any good anyway.

Which I wouldn't mind if it was framed as "aww, too bad we can't play Karn without going land-light" but instead it's being framed as "OMG this format is a HUGE FAIL because I can't play this ONE COMMANDER because eighteen lands is UNPLAYABLE I CAN'T BELIEVE wotc let this HUGE MISTAKE slip through their fingers WHAT ON EARTH were they thinking it's NOT FAIR they should CHANGE THE RULES FOR ALL OF COMPETITIVE MAGIC so that I can play TWO MORE LANDS in a casual format where no one would probably CARE if I used wastes REGARDLESS of their legality whine whine whine whine WHINE."

I mean, not to construct a straw man or anything :P

EDIT: to quote you: "Wastes need to be made evergreen legal if this format is going to take off" Which is ridiculous. YOU want wastes to be evergreen so YOU can play karn and/or hope of ghirapur (for some reason) without sacrificing land count. If you had said "I'd be more interested in the format if wastes were evergreen" or even "I think the format would be more successful if wastes were evergreen" that would be one thing, but instead you're stating as fact that the success of the entire format hangs in the balance of your pet commanders being personally catered to...and well, that pisses me off.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-28 2:59 pm 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
I said that more as a way of saying if they are going to be serious about it, they need to be able to support all possible commanders, no matter the greatness or horibleness, so everything has at least a fair starting point. But I can see where you saw my post in such a negative light. and I apologize for that.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-28 3:23 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
tgambitg wrote:
I said that more as a way of saying if they are going to be serious about it, they need to be able to support all possible commanders, no matter the greatness or horibleness, so everything has at least a fair starting point. But I can see where you saw my post in such a negative light. and I apologize for that.


Hey hey HEY! This is the internet, bucko! There ain't no room for your "polite apologies" or "understanding" here, mister! Now you get back there and overreact to Himetic's post this instant!

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"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-28 7:03 pm 

Joined: 2011-Mar-07 4:24 pm
Age: Drake
tgambitg wrote:
I said that more as a way of saying if they are going to be serious about it, they need to be able to support all possible commanders, no matter the greatness or horibleness, so everything has at least a fair starting point. But I can see where you saw my post in such a negative light. and I apologize for that.

Fair enough, and at this point I've definitely been overreacting anyway, so beef squashed (although I did have a lot of fun writing that straw man post and don't regret it a bit). Still not sure I quite agree, but I will say that I think it would be smart planning on their part to release enough colorless lands (or hey, even a wastes) in a standard-legal supplemental product to cover the oversight. It's also totally possible that, given that we haven't seen all the cards yet, that there are 4 more colorless lands in the set and the whole argument was for naught. Either way, I think that would be a benefit to the format, for the players who want to play karn.

If they absolutely must make an clumsy rule hack, then imo they should do it for brawl only and ideally plan ahead to have enough colorless lands in standard if they print colorless commanders, and remove the rule once planning has superseded the need for it. I mean really, one of the benefits of playing colorless should be risk-free playing of all utility lands. Filling the deck with wastes is way lamer than getting 20+ unique utility lands.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-29 6:42 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
I don't really see making basics evergreen as a clumsy rule hack. There is only 1 corner case for a halfway okay card.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-29 6:42 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
I don't really see making basics evergreen as a clumsy rule hack. There is only 1 corner case for a halfway okay card.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-29 7:04 am 

Joined: 2011-Mar-07 4:24 pm
Age: Drake
tgambitg wrote:
I don't really see making basics evergreen as a clumsy rule hack. There is only 1 corner case for a halfway okay card.

Well it's only partly because of card interactions that I think it's problematic. Obviously having people show up to standard events with awakened amalgams and a manabase with a bunch of snow lands that haven't been printed in 12 years would be very weird and undermines what standard is about - only playing the newest cards, and starts to make it look like players have to know something about much older cards - which is not something a new standard player is going to appreciate. It also potentially limits the sorts of things that wotc can print because it might interact badly with those cards existing. If amalgam was actually a tournament viable card, for example, that could be a problem.

But it's also just that they'd literally be adding an entirely new rule with seemingly no point except to make things easier on karn. Which is maaaaaybe acceptable if the rule was brawl exclusive but really strange if it applied to standard. If they kept printing colorless-required stuff and decided it was a new evergreen mechanic with wastes getting printed alongside the other basics, then great, but to have a rule allowing wastes (and by extension snow) with seemingly no reason for it (for standard players)? That would just be confusing to new players.

One rule might not seem like a big deal but what if everyone's pet commanders got to make impositions on the rules? What if we had a rule for haakon that said commanders can always be cast from the command zone regardless of their other text? A rule for phage and the myojin saying that it counts as being cast from your hand? All these rules look like nonsensical garbage unless you're trying to build one of those decks. Better to just let a few cards fall by the wayside than clutter up the rules trying to appease everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-05 12:19 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-02 3:54 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Germany, near Berlin
I don't just theorize, I act:
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/hope-of-deliverance/

Disclaimer: it actually works - the trick is to scry/draw into 2-3 lands and mana rocks. Eighteen is still on the far low end of a stable mana base - at least you don't need to worry about color requirements.

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Generals:
too many, and always changing... except:

Rakdos, Lord of Riots (Demon Tribal)
Melek, Izzet Paragon (Dragonstorm) -> these must stay because of a house rule


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-05 1:24 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Question, if anyone knows... did MaRo use this to shoehorn his hybrid mana BS into the CI rules in any way?

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"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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