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 Post subject: Re: Battlebond
AgePosted: 2018-May-24 3:49 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Any Voltron deck should have ways to prevent the General being targeted. This won't affect those decks.

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 Post subject: Re: Battlebond
AgePosted: 2018-May-24 6:51 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
thaumaturge wrote:
Image
Terribly janky but I dig it. Feels like this ought to appeal to a sizable segment of the casual crowd.


Five color Warrior tribal, it's finally happening!

At last a deck where my not even secret mancrush Boldwyr Intimidator can take the spotlight :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Battlebond
AgePosted: 2018-May-24 11:05 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I can't see any reason to not run Fumble. At worse, it's a cheap bounce spell, and it's got the potential for so much more.


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 Post subject: Re: Battlebond
AgePosted: 2018-May-25 12:20 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-02 5:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
Willbender wrote:
Wilkinsbane wrote:
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As if Auras weren't risky enough with their inherent card disadvantage. I am upset and disappointed that this exists.

I think it's more the "steal every single equipment from a Voltron player" that has me upset about this card. Voltron's already an inherently risky build, but if this card sees a lot of play (any why wouldn't it?) then things just got so much worse...


Ramses is going to love this card.

I like that warrior. I want to do something different with my Naya deck, and this has potential.

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 Post subject: Drying off my hype parade
AgePosted: 2018-May-28 6:10 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
Age: Drake
I am pretty hyped about this set. I read (most) of this thread and it dampened my spirit a little, so I'ma be a little petty here in sharing stuff I thought (think?) is common wisdom.

It is NEVER cost effective to crack packs for rares. You only get value for your pack if you want a wide range of commons or you want a randomized collection to limit/direct your deck construction.

Same deal for boxes. If you crack a box for specific mythics you will in the BEST case scenario have spent too much money for one or two cards. Only buy packs if you want lots of different cards, or random cards.

Do you want Doubling Season? Wait two months for it to dip to $20-$30 dollars then buy some. Basically everything else in the set will cost under a dollar for the next year, then only go up if it becomes a random staple/sees competitive eternal play.

Now to gush my hype! Friend/Foe is fun politics! Najeela lets me finish my 5-color warrior token deck on theme! Two-Card commanders are sweet! New duals that come in untapped and won't screw with legacy! COIN FLIP TRIBAL HAS ON THEME IZZET COMMANDERS NOW! The homunculi trigger of enemy mana crypts! So much group-hug utility!

If I was able to attend any limited events this month I'd be set :p

edit: I need a helm of hosts so bad now.

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 Post subject: Re: Battlebond
AgePosted: 2018-May-29 6:40 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
If you only want like 3 cards from a set, yeah, cracking packs is dumb, but...

A) Cracking packs is fun.

B) You don't get to play the foil lotto buying singles, and in SOME sets, it can actually be worth it - just look at the foil multipliers on BOTH Conspiracy sets. That may not make it the WISEST course but it again adds to the fun and with a little luck you can easily pay for your entire box with just one or two cards.

C) Even if you are technically right, you're only right because most people DON'T follow your line of thinking. Simply put, if you succeeded in convincing every Magic player that they were idiots for buying packs, then where would the singles market get it's supply? Sure some stores crack boxes but many smaller stores do not, or can only afford to do one or two boxes at most. If everyone just stopped buying packs the cost of singles would skyrocket, and then, suddenly it WOULD be more cost-effective to buy packs (in bulk at least).

So, sure, yeah, great for you if you never "waste" money on boosters. But the Magic economy would literally implode if every one of us jumped on that bandwagon. And some of us have different goals. Some of us like to gamble. Some of us want to collect ever single card printed in the game. Some of us just love the "new card smell" and want to fill a bathtub with with worthless commons and roll around.

"I never buy boosters" is the new "I only eat non-GMO foods", IMO. Just something tryhards use to feel smugly superior to all us morons trying to have fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Battlebond
AgePosted: 2018-May-29 8:51 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I generally "waste" money on 3 packs per set.

Its my way of supporting the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Battlebond
AgePosted: 2018-May-29 10:29 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Looks like a cool set, I'll be buying a box or two. I don't mind the wasted value if I get to draft them. Plus I wouldn't have a dozen fun commander decks if I only bought singles.

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 Post subject: Re: Battlebond
AgePosted: 2018-May-29 12:08 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Yeah, I'm not sure what to do with this set. There's only a couple new cards I'm really interested in, and then there's a few reprints I wouldn't mind...but I don't really feel like paying the price for any of those individually at the moment. So I think I'm just going to wait and see if things calm down for a lot of these.

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 Post subject: Re: Battlebond
AgePosted: 2018-May-29 3:40 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
Age: Drake
I probably should have quoted the post I was [over]reacting to in my first post.
thaumaturge wrote:
So, I suddenly remember Conspiracy 2 reaching similar levels of "OMG this is secretly Commander Masters" hype, but after cracking 3 or 4 boxes not REALLY having a whole lot to show for it (still worth it for the chance at pulling a foil Queen Marchesa - have you seen what she's going for now?!), I started to worry BBD might be treading in similar territory - just enough $$$ at mythic to seem uber-amazing, but diluted by too many mediocre cards to actually be worth it, unless you win the foil lottery (I did not).

The idea that a set SHOULD give reliable return-on-investment is off putting to me because it is incorrect. Consistent R.o.I. from boosters is a temporary thing, because the places that sell individual cards will keep opening boosters until they match demand well enough that cracking packs is not immediately profitable.

I see now that what I was reacting to was ambiguous enough that my meaning was unclear. I generally agreed with the things said in the response to me.
thaumaturge wrote:
So, sure, yeah, great for [Evilkritter] if you never "waste" money on boosters. But the Magic economy would literally implode if every one of us jumped on that bandwagon. And some of us have different goals. Some of us like to gamble. Some of us want to collect ever single card printed in the game. Some of us just love the "new card smell" and want to fill a bathtub with with worthless commons and roll around.

"I never buy boosters" is the new "I only eat non-GMO foods", IMO. Just something tryhards use to feel smugly superior to all us morons trying to have fun.

Then I noticed the person roasting me over an open fire was the same person who I thought was disparaging Battlebond for failing to pay out.
thaumaturge wrote:
Some of us like to gamble. Some of us want to collect ever single card printed in the game. Some of us just love the "new card smell" and want to fill a bathtub with with worthless commons and roll around.

Evilkritter wrote:
You only get value for your pack if you want a wide range of commons or you want a randomized collection to limit/direct your deck construction.
...
Only buy packs if you want lots of different cards, or random cards.

The response agreed with what I said. My collection consists mostly of Prerealease opens, draft chaff given to me by friends, and Precon decks. The chunk that I purchased myself is mostly $0.50 rares with weird effects that I thought were awesome.
thaumaturge wrote:
So, I suddenly remember Conspiracy 2 reaching similar levels of "OMG this is secretly Commander Masters" hype, but after cracking 3 or 4 boxes not REALLY having a whole lot to show for it, I started to worry BBD might be treading in similar territory - just enough $$$ at mythic to seem uber-amazing, but diluted by too many mediocre cards to actually be worth it, unless you win the foil lottery.

If this isn't criticizing the set's card quality purely on monetary value, I have no idea what it is.

The foil lottery is terrible odds, and the value of the "jackpot" foils exists BECAUSE of that. If you buy a mythic foil it will on average cost you less money than buying and opening packs until you found the mythic foil you wanted, even if you sold every other card you opened.

Like, if you want to play the foil lottery, have fun! Complaining that you'll probably lose at it is just a bad reason to knock a set.

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 Post subject: Re: Battlebond
AgePosted: 2018-May-29 10:52 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Evilkritter wrote:
Like, if you want to play the foil lottery, have fun! Complaining that you'll probably lose at it is just a bad reason to knock a set.


I don't think that was what Thaum did at all. Please go back and review the full original post. I saw no complaining and no bad mouthing of Battlebond. Maybe we read into a post what we expect to see, but all I saw was an honest assessment (in his opinion) of the set's "value" sprinkled with opinion of playability of non-reprint material (mostly friend/foe and assist).

Opening a pack is, generally, for one of three purposes:
1. Draft
2. Play cards
3. Sell cards

Thaumaturge gave an opinion on how likely pack contents will fill those last two objectives and why that influences his decision to buy packs/boxes; or not.

Was he perhaps a bit too critical of CY2? Possibly, though I read that paragraph as more self-flagellating. A kind of "why did I think I might salvage cost on cards I don't want from the set" rather than a "This whole set is horrible because you can earn more than the cost of a box by selling everything after you open it."

Other than your interpretation of Thaumaturge's posts, I mostly agree with you. Foil lottery is stupid (but I think foils are stupid, too). Buy packs if you intend to do something fun with them (pack wars, playgroup draft), otherwise singles are fine (or the occasional pre-con). The set has a bit to be excited about; whether or not RoI is good for buying a box.

Personally, I think friend/foe has more playability in EDH than others have given it credit for so far. Not only will hug decks want it, but sometimes the subtle use of "friend" in an FFDA game can be the poilitical swing needed for late-game decisions. Not so blatant as to feel manipulative, but not always "nothin'" either.

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 Post subject: Re: Battlebond
AgePosted: 2018-May-30 1:02 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Kritter, Tremayne largely has it right in terms of correcting your misinterpretation of my post. However I will say I was probably not as clear as I could have been in some statements so I understand how you misread some things.

I think the #1 thing where you and I fundamentally disagree is how we define "value". We don't know each other but it is clear to me that we have very different ideas in this regard. To me, value is, primarily having access to ANY and EVERY card I could ever possibly want to use. Obviously there are a LOT of things out of reach even for me and I will never actually attain this goal.

Anyway, getting back to the point, it will never be financially feasible for me to pick and choose ever single card to buy individually. But more importantly it will never be PRACTICAL. I'd spend WAY too much time trying to anticipate which cards I MIGHT use and, frankly, I would probably still overreach.

Very few things frustrate me more than building a new EDH deck, finding out at the end that I am missing just ONE key card - but it's too important to just swap it out with something - and then finding out that the card in question is like $40 or more. I also hate playing with non-foil commanders, when a foil exists.

The one last thing I want to clarify on my Conspiracy 2 comments is, I never said I regretted it - in fact I said "still worth it". But I was disappointed in that set and my expenditures on it, NOT because the total $ value of cards I opened didn't add up - but because the total number of cards I opened that found their way into decks was much lower than I thought. As spoiler season for that set unfolded the hype all over the internet was literally "this set is Commander Masters" and "This is the best set for EDH players EVAR!!!1!" and I bought into it simple because the slow trickle of day to day spoilers really did make it seem fantastic.

And, again, the foil lottery is a thing. Again, maybe not a SMART thing but it is a thing. But I usually have pretty good luck with it. I never managed to hit a Dack Fayden with CS1 but otherwise made out like a bandit, getting both financial and playable value. CS2 I went into with blinders on and had I evaluated the set better beforehand I would have realized that the only way I walked away happy was with a Leovold or Marchesa foil. And had I realized that beforehand I would have taken your approach and just bought the small handful of singles I knew I'd actually play. However, again I REEEEAAAALLLLLYYYY wanted (still do!) a foil Queen Marchesa (less so Leo since he's banned and also a huge dick move), and... this is key... as low as my chances of getting foil QM from three boxes was, my chances of getting one from BUYING SINGLES is literally ZERO.

So I'm not saying buying singles is bad or that I don't do it. I buy the shit out of singles too. But I am an omnivorous Magic player with a deep love of collecting as well as playing. So for me it actually does make financial sense (FOR MOST SETS - NOT ALL) to start by buying some number of boxes (usually around 3 if I can afford it - lately I can barely afford a fat pack most sets) and then just filling in the gaps with singles purchases.

All of this means I can easily have 30 or so EDH decks built at one time and none are skimping on card quality or resorting to janky filler cards. And it is VALUABLE to me that this is the case. So that, to me is the value in cracking packs.

Finally, I just want to say, the reason I went off was NOT just you, I have been seeing this anti-booster sentiment expressed in all corners of the community lately and it ALWAYS, ALWAYS comes across as smug and condescending. You even prefaced your post saying you were going to be "petty"... well I don't think petty was the right adjective but it illustrates that you yourself knew that post was going to come across a certain way.

Now, had you been the only person to have been smug about buying singles recently, I'd have just let it go and been fine. But my frustrations had been building up a while and your post was just the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak and I just finally had to vent my frustrations with seeing that shit everywhere I looked. I apologize that it came across as me flaming you specifically, I assure you that was not my intent, thought it wound up being the end result. My bad.

EDIT: And just in case it wasn't clear, if you read to the end of my first long-ass post on Battlebond - the one that started with my bit about CS2, you would realize I came to the conclusion that buying singles was, for me, the way to go even before you posted your thing. So, your post came across EXTRA smug since you were literally calling us (me, it seemed) out for something we (I) had already figured out.

And, just to clarify a BIT further I at least agree with you insofar as the foil lotto should never be a sole factor or even a primary factor in buying boosters. THAT is exactly why I expressed the disappointment with CS2 that I did - it's just that I realized AFTER opening 3 boxes that the foil lotto was as big a deal as it was. I just thought there were more playables in the set that I would use and only after I opened, sorted and collated everything did I realize most of the set was junk and the hype was riding largely on a few mythics, a few good reprints and that insane foil multiplier.

My BBD rant was me working through all that and coming to the conclusion that, while BBD is likely to be a much higher EV set than CS2 that EV largely depends on you wanting a significant number of the reprints. And since I do not need most of the reprints and my interest is almost entirely in the new cards, I will likely buy singles for this set. If I DID care more about the reprints I would almost certainly be looking to buy boxes and I am about 95% sure I would not feel anywhere near as let down as I did by CS2 no matter what I opened.

So in essence, yes, if you buy a box or more but will ONLY be happy if you open very specific cards, then it is a bad idea. On that I think we can agree. It's just for me, CS2 was very much an anomaly in that I THOUGHT I wanted a ton of stuff from it, but once I opened it all I realized there were actually only about half a dozen cards I truly wanted. MOST sets, I basically want everything. Even if I don't think I'll use it, I want at least 1 of everything, even the jank, because you never know when a new card will come out that makes a previously worthless card suddenly playable. In other words, IF I am paying a slight premium to have access to a much larger and deeper card pool so that I can build decks without having to go online and order 5 or 6 cards every time I do, TO ME that is absolutely worth it.

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 Post subject: Re: Battlebond
AgePosted: 2018-May-30 1:34 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Treamayne wrote:
Personally, I think friend/foe has more playability in EDH than others have given it credit for so far. Not only will hug decks want it, but sometimes the subtle use of "friend" in an FFDA game can be the poilitical swing needed for late-game decisions. Not so blatant as to feel manipulative, but not always "nothin'" either.


So, yeah, I have to admit that when I wrote that post I did not correctly understand how those cards worked. Somehow I blanked over the "For each player" part at the beginning and ALSO thought that "friend" mean "teammate" and "foe" meant opponents. So my initial evaluation was wrong on two levels. First was my not realizing you choose all the roles upon casting and they aren't predetermined. Second was my thinking that you just "choose friend or foe" and then only the chosen one happened. So you would only get the "friend" effect OR the "foe" effect.

Once I realized that you set those roles with each casting AND you always get both effects, I realized they are not QUITE as useless as I thought. However, looking back over them with a correct understanding, I am still not impressed by any of them, though many do at least elevate from "utter garbage" to "playable, if you don't have anything better lying around". Outside of group hug or at least heavily political decks, they still seem weaker overall than similar effects in their respective colors.

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 Post subject: Re: Battlebond
AgePosted: 2018-May-30 3:29 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-13 6:01 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Washington D.C.
The "Partners with" for the new legends has me thinking.

I know they can be your commanders as partners, but can one of them start in the deck? Or must they both be in the command zone?

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 Post subject: Re: Battlebond
AgePosted: 2018-May-30 4:04 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Superstrength79 wrote:
The "Partners with" for the new legends has me thinking.

I know they can be your commanders as partners, but can one of them start in the deck? Or must they both be in the command zone?

Yes, one of them can be in your deck. In that case they won't be (one of) your commander(s) though. I'm pretty sure it's a base rule of Commander to start the game with your commander(s) in the command zone.
No, the other "Partner with..." can't be in your deck--at least not the ones in Battlebond. Only creatures/planeswalkers actually in your command zone can be your commander, and from there color identity rules take over.

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Last edited by Segrus on 2018-May-30 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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