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 Post subject: Commander 2018 "Storm" cycle, and Partner
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-06 2:52 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Echo Storm reads:

"Echo Storm
3UU
Sorcery
When you cast this spell, copy it for each time you've cast your commander from the command zone this game. You may choose new targets for the copies.

Create a token that's a copy of target artifact."

If you're playing with Partner (from 2016, or Battlebond) Commanders, does it count the number of casts from the command zone for one of the partners, or both?

Rule 702.123e suggests that it would only count one of their total castings from the command zone

702.123e If an effect refers to your commander while you have two commanders, it refers to either one. If an effect causes you to perform an action on your commander and it could affect both, you choose which it refers to at the time the effect is applied.


Anyone want to weigh in with a different opinion, or does it work pretty much how I think it does?

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2018 "Storm" cycle, and Partner
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-06 3:15 am 
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Yeah, I think the rules suggest at the time of casting you choose which of the two partner commanders will count.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2018 "Storm" cycle, and Partner
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-06 9:11 am 

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Gavin confirmed on Commanderin' that it counts the total times any of your Commanders have been cast.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2018 "Storm" cycle, and Partner
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-06 11:11 am 
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The relevant example here may be split cards - for example, if an effect asks the question "What is the CMC of Odds // Ends?" the answer is "2 AND 5". If something like Command Tower needs to know the color ID of Zndrsplt and Okaun, the answer is "Blue AND Red". So it makes sense that you would combine, and not pick one or the other for "How many times have you cast your commander?".

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2018 "Storm" cycle, and Partner
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-06 12:45 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
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Im not sure I like your reasoning Sid, for split cards you have an A or B set up. What is the CMC of a split card? 2 or 5, but not 7.

So this line of reasoning suggests a choice between the partners not a combination of them both.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2018 "Storm" cycle, and Partner
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-06 1:17 pm 
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specter404 wrote:
Im not sure I like your reasoning Sid, for split cards you have an A or B set up. What is the CMC of a split card? 2 or 5, but not 7.

So this line of reasoning suggests a choice between the partners not a combination of them both.

Well, split card CMC depends on the zone its in when the effect checks the CMC. On the stack, it is either one side or the other depending on which side was cast. In every other zone, the CMC is a both sides added together. In this way, cascade hitting split cards is now highly unlikely, since cascade checks CMC while a card is in exile (and split card total CMCs are generally pretty high).

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2018 "Storm" cycle, and Partner
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-06 3:35 pm 

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Ah right. I knew they changed the way split cards worked, but I got the change the wrong way around. Combined CMC is why brain in a jar isn't a modern deck anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2018 "Storm" cycle, and Partner
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-13 2:38 am 
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charlequin wrote:
Gavin confirmed on Commanderin' that it counts the total times any of your Commanders have been cast.

I wonder what the rules basis is. The rule I quoted seems to suggest you pick one of your Commanders on casting commanderstorm spells, but I can see an intuitive ruling in the other direction.

Can you link the particular episode of Commanderin'? I'm unfamiliar with it...

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2018 "Storm" cycle, and Partner
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-14 12:35 pm 
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Quote:
702.123e If an effect refers to your commander while you have two commanders, it refers to either one. If an effect causes you to perform an action on your commander and it could affect both, you choose which it refers to at the time the effect is applied.

Looking back at your OP, it's clearly the part I've highlighted in red that's important - the second part applies if you're performing an action on your commander, which you are not. Every time you cast one of the partners, you are "casting your commander" - in this case either one will count toward the total.

So the rules basis for this is the very rule that you quoted.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2018 "Storm" cycle, and Partner
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-14 1:52 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
So to put that together (in my mind at least)
Commander storm says "copy this for each time you cast Your commander
The rule states that your commander is considered either of your partners.
Each time I cast one of my commanders it counts as casting my commander, regardless of how many commanders I have. So when the spell effect asks "How many times have you cast your commander" I count all the times I have cast a commander card that is mine.

This is in contrast to counting how many times a commander card has been cast.
The focus is supposed to be on the player, not the commander card.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2018 "Storm" cycle, and Partner
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-15 5:36 am 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
Quote:
702.123e If an effect refers to your commander while you have two commanders, it refers to either one.


Ergo..

Quote:
When you cast this spell, copy it for each time you've cast [either one of your commanders] from the command zone this game.


I cast one partner. That's the first time I "cast either one of my commanders".
I cast my other partner. That's the second time I "cast either one of my commanders".

Case closed...?

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2018 "Storm" cycle, and Partner
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-15 9:15 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
That is certainly how I read 702.123e now.

I admit it was not when I first saw it, but this thread plus the discussion from Gavin has shown me the way I was mistaken.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2018 "Storm" cycle, and Partner
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-22 2:22 am 
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MRHblue wrote:
That is certainly how I read 702.123e now.

I admit it was not when I first saw it, but this thread plus the discussion from Gavin has shown me the way I was mistaken.


Thanks for the answers, all; I'm just as happy that you use the sum of your partner castings for it, haha.

Not further argument, just an explanation for my thought process on why I thought it was 'choose one of your commanders': My confusion comes from the phrase "either one." I think the following (supplied by MMLgamer) is genuinely ambiguous:

Quote:
When you cast this spell, copy it for each time you've cast [either one of your commanders] from the command zone this game.


This could mean casting either one in terms of a sum (as has been interpreted in this thread), but it could also mean the number of times you've cast one or the other ("either one", as in an implied exclusive or, like an offer for "coffee or tea").

So, if you've cast Thrasios 3 times, and Sidar Kondo 2 times from the command zone, it would read "When you cast this spell, copy it 3 times or copy it 2 times."

All that said, the way the surrounding rules are worded, they clearly separate the partners with 'choose one' templating, and it's conspicuously absent for the relevant text of 702.123e.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2018 "Storm" cycle, and Partner
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-22 9:06 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
Sinis wrote:
Quote:
When you cast this spell, copy it for each time you've cast [either one of your commanders] from the command zone this game.


This could mean casting either one in terms of a sum (as has been interpreted in this thread), but it could also mean the number of times you've cast one or the other ("either one", as in an implied exclusive or, like an offer for "coffee or tea").

So, if you've cast Thrasios 3 times, and Sidar Kondo 2 times from the command zone, it would read "When you cast this spell, copy it 3 times or copy it 2 times."

All that said, the way the surrounding rules are worded, they clearly separate the partners with 'choose one' templating, and it's conspicuously absent for the relevant text of 702.123e.

Choosing either coffee or tea and counting the number of times you've had either coffee or tea are two different things. The same goes with figuring how many times you've had either and figuring the greatest number of times you've had one.

Based on this, a) choosing a general to get with Command Beacon and b) counting how many times you cast either general are not comparable. (b) clearly interacts with the portion of the rule I quoted in my last post while (a) works with the portion after that emphasized below:

Quote:
702.123e. If an effect refers to your commander while you have two commanders, it refers to either one. If an effect causes you to perform an action on your commander and it could affect both, you choose which it refers to at the time the effect is applied.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2018 "Storm" cycle, and Partner
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-01 12:01 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Hi all,

In October 2018 a new ruling was added to the Commander Storm cards on Gatherer (e.g. Echo Storm) confirming the correct interpretation is the sum total of both commanders:

Gatherer wrote:
10/5/2018 - If you have multiple commanders, you’ll copy this spell for each time you’ve cast either of them. For example, if you’ve cast one commander once and one twice, you’ll copy this spell three times.


It appears at the bottom of the rulings list. I still don't exactly understand why it sums both while Command Beacon returns only one, but I'm happy taking the ruling's word for it.

Partner Storm away!

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