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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-27 10:04 am 

Joined: 2012-Oct-24 8:05 pm
Age: Drake
Tim Proctor wrote:
There are over 150 creatures with power 3+ and first strike/doublestrike. 43 of them that can be Commanders. A lot of these cards (Baneslayer Angel, Ramiez DePrieto) are considered EDH staples and are likely to be in a deck (not to mention cards that give those abilities or are the said keyrune).

And of those, only Thalia, Heretic Cathar and a few with activated removal abilities actually save you from this combo. Blocking doesn't work. (Unless all the Godo player's opponents can block indefinitely AND they don't have Hammer of Nazahn in their deck.)

Tim Proctor wrote:
Plus there are tons (you can literally count them by the 2,000s) of ways to stop this combo from going off from removal, fogs, theft, etc. where even if it delays it 2 turns, gets you a lot of ire from the other table players.

I don't see this as anything worse than Arcum, Zur, Sliver Queen, etc.

I think the linchpin for me is that it has to happen in the combat phase and can't be executed at instant speed like a good amount of other combos. Because of that, I see a lot of opportunity for disruption from other players. If we've learned how to deal with the other search engine Commanders I don't see this being an issue either.

This, however, I agree with.

Also, this combo just won an episode of Commander Clash.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-27 11:21 am 
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NMS wrote:
Blocking doesn't work.


You're going to have to explain this to me, cause otherwise I'm lost.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-27 2:15 pm 
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Tim Proctor wrote:
You're going to have to explain this to me, cause otherwise I'm lost.

Each combat, a new nonlegendary Godo token is created and triggers its EtB effect, then swings. Regardless of whether it survives the whole combat step, the combo continues on the next extra combat step. Even if they are blocked and killed each time, the Godo player can still use the combo to search for any number of equipment and put them all directly onto the battlefield. If the first of these is Hammer of Nazahn, they all become equipped at no cost. If any of the following equipment grant vigilance (or Runed Stalactite), now the true Godo can attack every combat too, particularly if another equipment also grants evasion, meaning infinite Commander damage to all attackable opponents.

Furthermore, let's suppose someone has landed Stranglehold a moment too late, so the original Godo found Helm, but the tokens cannot tutor on EtB. Or really, any other hypothetical such that we are only looking at how well blocking works to defend against this combo when no other equipment is involved. If ALL of Godo's opponents have an available blocker with at least 3 power and first strike or indestructible, AND Godo doesn't have any extra way to profit from infinite tokens being created and dying (Purphoros, God of the Forge, Goblin Bombardment, etc.), then the combo doesn't do anything. However, if even one of the opponents does not have such a blocker, that player is getting hit for lethal AND another player is getting hit for the same amount; the first time each Godo token swings it untaps itself, able to attack again once that turn. For the same reason, one of Godo's opponents trying to block indefinitely with an indestructible creature that can't kill the tokens (if the blocker has less than 3 power, for example) will still result in infinite tokens swinging all at once.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-28 2:10 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
intreped wrote:
Tim Proctor wrote:
You're going to have to explain this to me, cause otherwise I'm lost.

Each combat, a new nonlegendary Godo token is created and triggers its EtB effect, then swings. Regardless of whether it survives the whole combat step, the combo continues on the next extra combat step. Even if they are blocked and killed each time, the Godo player can still use the combo to search for any number of equipment and put them all directly onto the battlefield. If the first of these is Hammer of Nazahn, they all become equipped at no cost. If any of the following equipment grant vigilance (or Runed Stalactite), now the true Godo can attack every combat too, particularly if another equipment also grants evasion, meaning infinite Commander damage to all attackable opponents.


Thank you for clarifying that.

I was thinking more of the sudden death aspect of it, where you cast the commander, tutor, and equip and swing with the token (since the original still has summoning sickness). At that point, you can block the tokens individually all day long. However, the 2nd equipment being the hammer makes a huge impact (the next best would be Lightning Greaves so that you can swing with both the first time).

I think that it'll be interesting to see where it goes, my gut says it'll end up being a combo deck that will end up winning for a while because we're not used to the iteration, and then falls to the wayside like most other combo decks. Because there is only one iteration with Godo, Helm, and Hammer it makes it fairly easy for disruption compared to some blue or black combos that have multiple iterations.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-28 3:57 am 
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Location: New Hampshire
Tim Proctor wrote:
my gut says it'll end up being a combo deck that will end up winning for a while because we're not used to the iteration, and then falls to the wayside like most other combo decks.

Pretty sure this one has already fallen to the wayside. While it's essentially a one-card combo, it requires a ton of mana to do in one turn and is easily disrupted by that point. It's not good enough for competitive metas and probably not welcome in more casual ones. So annoying, but pretty much DOA.

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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-31 9:46 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Tim Proctor wrote:
A lot of these cards (Baneslayer Angel, Ramiez DePrieto) are considered EDH staples ...

Really? No one is going to object to that ?

:?:

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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-31 10:58 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
Tim Proctor wrote:
A lot of these cards (Baneslayer Angel, Ramiez DePrieto) are considered EDH staples ...

Really? No one is going to object to that ?

:?:

When you're right, you're right. :P

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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-31 12:55 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
MRHblue wrote:
Tim Proctor wrote:
A lot of these cards (Baneslayer Angel, Ramiez DePrieto) are considered EDH staples ...

Really? No one is going to object to that ?


Ok, fair. The price memory effect on Baneslayer's been really stubborn -- it's still $10, long after it disappeared from any 60-card competitive format. And it's not really worth it; all the good token making creatures are 5-mana, and they're generally just more useful. Even if you're specifically playing mono-white angel tribal, the ol' Bankslayer's gotta compete with Lyra Dawnbringer, Blinding Angel, Karmic Guide, and even Angel of Invention and Angel of Sanctions are situationally better. Oh, and Archangel of Thune, which is combo-tacular (but same price).

Admittedly, I've been caught by the pro-Demons/Dragons before, but only 'cause I really like bad decks.

tl;dr: Baneslayer Angel... definitely not a staple, probably not even good. Def not $10 good

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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-31 1:50 pm 
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Kemev wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
Tim Proctor wrote:
A lot of these cards (Baneslayer Angel, Ramiez DePrieto) are considered EDH staples ...

Really? No one is going to object to that ?

tl;dr: Baneslayer Angel... definitely not a staple, probably not even good. Def not $10 good

But the pirate guy is? I can't even troll with this anymore...


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-31 1:51 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
<tangent>
Best card I ever opened in a draft was a foil Baneslayer. Got myself $50 worth of cards for it. Good times.
</tangent>

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"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-31 2:41 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Tim Proctor wrote:
But the pirate guy is?


Red doesn't add that much to pirate tribal, so Ramirez is the only legit option.

Viperion wrote:
<tangent>


Can't have a tangent if there was never a line of thought to begin with.

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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-04 9:55 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Tim Proctor wrote:
Kemev wrote:
tl;dr: Baneslayer Angel... definitely not a staple, probably not even good. Def not $10 good

But the pirate guy is? I can't even troll with this anymore...


So maybe I am wierd, but if I have an extra Baneslayer Angel, that is going to be added to the next deck with W, I love that card that much. I mean is it as good as Lyra? no in most cases it may not be, but I don't have the same history with Lyra as I do Baneslayer. Granted if I had both available I would easily play both, if I had to choose I would likely cut a 4 drop or something, cause they are both that good to me.

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-04 11:20 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Inkeyes22 wrote:
I mean is it as good as Lyra?

That card link doesn't go where you want it to go ;)

Lyra Dawnbringer

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-04 11:47 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
Inkeyes22 wrote:
I mean is it as good as Lyra?

That card link doesn't go where you want it to go ;)

Lyra Dawnbringer


How wierd is that... thanks Viperion!

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-05 10:23 am 

Joined: 2019-Jan-05 10:13 am
Age: Egg
I have been playing Godo for years. I picked Godo because I wanted the challenge of playing mono red because it was by far the WORST color in EDH, and only a mediocre commander at best. Godo was a meme deck.

I resisted the urge of putting grafted skullcap in Godo partially because it was too glass cannony and would usually end up in a 2:1 anyways without actually killing anyone, but also because people requested to not play against it.

Godo players already often self regulate on the skullcap, I don't think there should be any difference here in players self regulating this.

If however either card did need to go: CLEARLY kill the helm. Why kill a mediocre archtype vs killing a mediocre card. Banning godo would be banning an entire deck, where the helm would be targeting the combo alone.


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