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MTG Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander • View topic - Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-01 9:28 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Can we go back to the OP for a second? The question is not "what is the rule" but "why is the rule"

We all agree that the rule is one 100 cards total. But when you try to explain why it breaks down. The honest answer is because the RC says so. We can infer the intended outcome of this rule, but there is no specific unambiguous rule to quote here.

The rules as written allow it. The text on relentless rats does no specify that they only break the 4-of rule, the gather rulings only specify that the rule does not extend to format legality. The comp rules state that card text over-rides the rules so if anything the given rules are in favor of "any number of rats".

That said as a judge if I was pushed to make a call I would not allow it. The RC make specific mention of RR breaking rule 4 but not anywhere else, so the intended interpretation of the rule is for it to break that rule and no others. This is also the only relevant rule that is broken in 60 card formats, so the logical transfer to the commander is that it only affects that deck building restriction.

That said if the rest of the players agree then have your rats deck. I don't see much functional difference between 60 rats and 250 rats when it comes to gameplay.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-01 1:25 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-01 1:42 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-02 1:33 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-03 7:21 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-04 1:53 am 
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While I agree that common sense definitely eliminates the negative number problem and probably for most people the color identity problem too, this thread exists because common sense is subjective and the rules are written with the goal of being objective. Ideally, every player, given sufficient understanding of the rules, can agree what is the proper outcome of a particular situation.

I had always imagined the rule for the 4-of limit was something like "between zero and four, inclusive" but it is actually written "no more than four" which is funny because it means if we abandon common sense, you are correct that the current rules do allow adding a negative Sorrow's Path to fit in your 101th card; the Rat's rules text is not relevant to this flaw in the rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-04 4:41 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
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Location: Palm Springs Area, CA

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-04 8:35 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-05 1:29 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-06 12:52 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-06 1:28 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-06 1:37 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
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Gatherer tells us one rule the rats let you ignore and one rule they do not. It could have said "It does not allow you to break other deck building restrictions." but it specifies two rules which were relevant to the situation that they wanted to address.

Gatherer rulings are designed to address specifics and so we probably shouldn't infer broader rulings from them.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-06 1:47 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-06 2:00 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
You can take that part in one of two ways. Either the rats allow you to break the deckbuilding restrictions which allow you to have more than 100 cards, and so you commander and lands fits on top of that, or the rats allow you the break the deck building restriction requiring a commander, meaning you can have a pile of 150 rats and nothing else being a legal deck.

Neither of these is a particularly good solution, but my argument isn't about what is right, but what is correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-06 2:13 pm 
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