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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-06 2:37 pm 
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specter404 wrote:
The card text on relentless rats allows me to break whichever rules I need to in order to include the number of rats I want to.
Incorrect. As is noted in the gatherer rulings on it.

specter404 wrote:
The card set legality rule is one that has been specifically ruled on gatherer, making it an official rule for that card. Why then should there not be official rules for other things?
Because that ruling focuses the ability on the card to only apply to the "limit of 4" on any non-basic land. So why would it apply to allowing you to bypass the min (or max) # of cards allowed in your deck?

Where in your logic does that follow?

The gatherer ruling is basically an alternate way to interpret that rule. It says it "lets you ignore the "four-of" rule". It zeroes in on which rule it breaks. So why would you let it break any other rule when you have this official ruling?


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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-06 6:27 pm 
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specter404 wrote:
Gatherer tells us one rule the rats let you ignore and one rule they do not. It could have said "It does not allow you to break other deck building restrictions." but it specifies two rules which were relevant to the situation that they wanted to address.

Gatherer rulings are designed to address specifics and so we probably shouldn't infer broader rulings from them.
You are completely misunderstanding what the "Gather Rulings" are. They are not actually the rules for those cards. They are rules clarifications for questions that often come up. They are a card-specific FAQ - they do not address everything, just some of the more common questions, and when the Comprehensive Rules change, the FAQ is overridden by those changes (and quickly updated to reflect those changes).

Also:
Gatherer wrote:
The second ability of Relentless Rats lets you ignore the “four-of” rule. It doesn’t let you ignore format legality. For example, during a Masters 25 Limited event, you can’t add Relentless Rats from your personal collection.

1) The format legality portion is presented simply as one example.
2) Format legality defines upper and lower limits to deck sizes. In Commander, format legality defines color identity issues. So you'd still be wrong, even if that were the only rule for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-08 2:09 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
I'm sorry if I come off a little salty about this topic, but it rears its head every couple years and frankly I think it's completely asinine.

I dont disagree, I just think a simple rules clarification stated in any official capacity could side-step this entire topic. If we had something to point to and say "That, that is the ruling that explains it" then it would stop rearing it's head every couple of years. At the very least the topic will be less than 1 page.
Willbender wrote:
Gatherer wrote:
The second ability of Relentless Rats lets you ignore the “four-of” rule. It doesn’t let you ignore format legality. For example, during a Masters 25 Limited event, you can’t add Relentless Rats from your personal collection.

1) The format legality portion is presented simply as one example.
2) Format legality defines upper and lower limits to deck sizes. In Commander, format legality defines color identity issues. So you'd still be wrong, even if that were the only rule for it.

The fact that it is presented as one example is very much my point. The four of rule may also be presented as only one example. The ruling is that the ability "lets you ignore the four of rule", not "only let you ignore the four of rule". It would be so easy to have made the ruling to be clearly about the 4 of rule, and nothing else and yet it is left without that... unless...

If point 2 is correct then I will completely concede my argument. I need to do some digging to confirm that the term "Format Legality" includes all those things. I took format legality to mean cards legal to the format eg. force of will is not legal in standard.
Willbender wrote:
You are completely misunderstanding what the "Gather Rulings" are. They are not actually the rules for those cards. They are rules clarifications for questions that often come up. They are a card-specific FAQ - they do not address everything, just some of the more common questions, and when the Comprehensive Rules change, the FAQ is overridden by those changes (and quickly updated to reflect those changes).

This part I dont understand. How is "Card specific rules FAQ" different to "Rules for those cards". My statement was that gatherer is meant to give rulings based on a specific set of circumstances and should not be used to make broad inferences, which as near as I can tell is the same as saying "They are card specific and do not address everything"

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-08 2:34 pm 
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specter404 wrote:
This part I dont understand. How is "Card specific rules FAQ" different to "Rules for those cards". My statement was that gatherer is meant to give rulings based on a specific set of circumstances and should not be used to make broad inferences, which as near as I can tell is the same as saying "They are card specific and do not address everything"

Because a FAQ is for Frequently asked questions. They are only a subset of rulings, and not all-encompassing. That's what the Comprehensive Rules are for. Just because the FAQ talked about situation A and not situation B does not mean that situation B is not dealt with by the rules. In this case, mentioning the "four-of" rule, and the "format legality rule" doesn't mean that the Comprehensive Rules don't address the rest of the rules it isn't allowed to break.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-08 4:45 pm 
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specter404 wrote:
The ruling is that the ability "lets you ignore the four of rule", not "only let you ignore the four of rule".

That's a BS interpretation. I can't believe you even suggested it.

If you're looking at the rules at this level, then you know the rules describe what you are allowed to do. If it doesn't say you can do something else, then you can't do something else. The gatherer rulings should be treated the same way: It tells you what it does. To say that it might do something else is disingenuous at best, or trolling at worst.

That's like saying "I can draw 10 cards when I cast Divination because it doesn't say you only draw 2 cards." Would you ever let anyone get away with an interpretation like that while playing the game? If not, then why do you think that's some sort of valid argument here?


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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-08 10:42 pm 
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specter404 wrote:
I dont disagree, I just think a simple rules clarification stated in any official capacity could side-step this entire topic. If we had something to point to and say "That, that is the ruling that explains it" then it would stop rearing it's head every couple of years. At the very least the topic will be less than 1 page.

Honestly I think the way to avoid multi-page debates about this is to just not engage in debates to the extent they become multi-page.

We already covered in the first page or two every reason from the rules why we handle Relentless Rats the way we do, and also every weakness or loophole in those interpretations and those rules, and also why we handle Relentless Rats the way we do despite those weaknesses and loopholes (mainly: because it's the way that makes sense). This page and the last are just going back over that only with more toxicity.

This becoming a four page discussion is the result of collaborative building a mountain out of a molehill, and it's why I stepped out on page 2.

Feature request: Debate threads about Relentless Rats get closed after they go over the main points.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-11 1:25 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Up until Willbender no-one, not a single person, provided a justification for WHY relentless rats is not allowed to break other deck construction rules.

Papa funk offered a challenge to the discussion, and then all through page one people say 'Relentless rats isn't allowed to break the other rules' 'relentless rats only lets you break the singleton rule' and repeat that sentiment again and again without ever actually explaining why. Page 1 references zero comprehensive rules, zero gatherer rulings. It mentions 2 commander rules but only in order to say relentless rats can break this but can't break that.

The rule requiring a commander is different, the rule requiring 100 cards and no more is different, but why is it treated differently to the singleton rule?

Do not conflate stating facts with explaining concepts and do not berate me for your inability to adequately justify your understanding. If you don't want to engage with furthering that understanding then don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-11 2:31 pm 
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specter404 wrote:
Up until Willbender no-one, not a single person, provided a justification for WHY relentless rats is not allowed to break other deck construction rules.

I'm sorry - but why should it break other rules? Where is that expectation coming from?

I feel I wrote up a bunch of explanation in my original post here, and people keep ignoring it without trying to actually argue against it -- you end up just saying "nobody has done X"

All you said to me was "cards overrule rules" That's fine -- I agree with that. That doesn't automagically invalidate my arguments.

You seem like you've just put your head in the sand and are saying "la-la I can't hear you."

We don't need to reference the comp rules - my break down was looking at what we can/can't do (as we know based on gatherer rulings) and then inferring what those limits end up being and applying them to commander.

Show me where my logic is wrong. Lack of referencing the comp rules or gathering rulings is a cop out - my logic is good (unless you can point to a problem with it -- which your one attempt to do so failed, and everythign else is just you generalizing things.)

specter404 wrote:
and do not berate me for your inability to adequately justify your understanding.
Then do not just gloss over the effort I put forth in trying to explain it. Take a look at it and if you find fault it in, tell me where.


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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-12 8:15 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Alright then
Carthain wrote:
Consider: In regular (tournament) magic, all that ability does is let you play more than 4 copies. So, it lets you play more copies of that card than normally allowed.

As well, it does not allow you to otherwise break the other restrictions of the format.

Given the wording, the rules for having a 60 card deck and have any number of relentless rats are not mutually exclusive. Choose a number, you may build a deck with that number of relentless rats. This is true in any format in which you can select relentless rats as a card. Except for commander.

This is why your attempt at an analogy is flawed:

Quote:
Consider: Relentless Rats in Modern, lets you play a deck of 20 swamps & 40 relentless rats -- because it's letting you skip the "max 4 copies" rule. But Relentless Rats doesn't let you play only 30 of them and 20 swamps in the same format. Because there is a restriction that says you must have at least 60 cards.

As I mentioned before, the number of relentless rats does not change from 30 rats/30 swamps to 30 rats/20 swamps, the rule only allows you to select the number of rats, not the number of other cards in your deck. The comprehensive rules state that you can break whichever rule you need to in order to have the number of rats you want. You dont need to break the 60 card minimum in order to have 30 rats, so you are not allowed to.

Quote:
So applying that to Commander -- it lets you play more than 4, but it doesn't override the deck restriction of 1 Commander + 99 other cards in the commander's Colour Identity.

Which is the same reason you can't play relentless rats in a mono-green Commander deck. They don't let you break every deck building rule.


So applying this to commander, select a number, if that number exceeds 99 then the rules of the format prevent you from legally selecting that number, there is an argument now that you should be able to break the rule you need to break in order to include the number of rats you want to.

In every other format in which you are allowed to play 1 rat, you are allowed to play any number between 1-1000, and you can break the rules you need to break in order to do so. Why then is that not the case for us?

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-12 8:32 am 
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specter404 wrote:
Given the wording, the rules for having a 60 card deck and have any number of relentless rats are not mutually exclusive. Choose a number, you may build a deck with that number of relentless rats. This is true in any format in which you can select relentless rats as a card. Except for commander.

So, if I'm getting you here, you're saying that you can have a deck of 30 rats & no other cards in modern? As in, there's nothing preventing you from doing that?

Because it seems that's the basis of your arguments here. If so then we can build a proper debate. If not, then I'm still misunderstanding you and would like you to please rephrase it.


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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-12 9:01 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
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I did mention that in the post above
You choose 30 rats, you are allowed to have a deck that has 30 rats, you must have 60 cards because having 60 cards doesnt stop you from having 30 rats. The rule extends only so far as it needs to in order to make the card text true and it changes depending on the situation.

Putting 30 rats in your deck and having a deck with 60 cards are not in conflict.

Putting 150 rats in your deck and having a deck with no more than 100 card is in conflict.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-12 10:29 am 
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specter404 wrote:
The rule extends only so far as it needs to in order to make the card text true and it changes depending on the situation.

Incorrect. Simply because we have a ruling on it that specifically says it applies to the "4-of" limit rule. In Commander it's a "1-of" limit rule, but essentially the same rule so we allow it to overwrite the same rule.

That doesn't mean you suddenly get to override the rule about deck size limitations when you run in conflict of them.

Specifically because we have the card ruling that states that it only applies to the "4-of" limit rule.

I know above you said that it doesn't say that it "only" applies to that rule -- but that's garbage logic you are using (see previously in this thread for my contention with it.)


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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-12 11:30 am 

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Carthain wrote:
Specifically because we have the card ruling that states that it only applies to the "4-of" limit rule.


But that's not what the ruling says is it? What it says is that the second ability "lets you ignore the four of rule". In the situation in which the four of rule is relevant, you may ignore it, we can equate the four of and 1 of rules, so the second ability lets you do that too.

However we are not talking about the singleton rule, we are talking about a set of deck construction rules wholly unreferenced by the gatherer ruling. There is no ruling on the applicability of that ability to other deck construction requirements. Gatherer does not cover this situation and as Willbender points out, gatherer is not a replacement for rules, it is a response to a particular question.

Which is why you must go back to the comp rules.

MTG Comp Rules wrote:
101.1. Whenever a card’s text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation.


The card overrides only the rule that applies to the specific situation. The application is explicitly stated to be situational and explicitly stated to apply only so far as it is required in that situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-12 12:53 pm 
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I'm just going to point out, again, that if it worked the way you're claiming, they would be banned in EDH. When you build a format around a certain set of restrictions, the last thing you want is a card to be legal that ignores them. That should at least be a hint that it's simply not correct.

That ability was created for magic formats that do not have an upper limit (no sanctioned format does that, and EDH wasn't a thing when RR was printed). So it can be inferred, from this and from the gatherer rulings, that the ability is meant to let it break the upper limit on the number of a specific card you are normally allowed. That is the intent, and nothing more.

And even if that were not the case, its ability does not extend to other cards, which is why Papa_funk's example holds. There is no legal deck that has 100+ Relentless Rats and also other cards.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-12 1:18 pm 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
That ability was created for magic formats that do not have an upper limit (no sanctioned format does that,
OK, let's just put this to rest by also addressing this misconception as well: There is indeed an upper limit to deck size in every sanctioned Magic format, and Relentless Rats does not allow you to break this rule:

Wizards.com wrote:
There's no maximum deck size, as long as you can shuffle your deck in your hands unassisted.
So no, you cannot run 1000+ copies of Relentless Rats in a deck, as that breaks the upper limit on deck size (which is fuzzy and non-numeric, but does exist).

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