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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-12 2:01 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I'm just going to point out, again, that if it worked the way you're claiming, they would be banned in EDH. When you build a format around a certain set of restrictions, the last thing you want is a card to be legal that ignores them. That should at least be a hint that it's simply not correct.

That ability was created for magic formats that do not have an upper limit (no sanctioned format does that, and EDH wasn't a thing when RR was printed). So it can be inferred, from this and from the gatherer rulings, that the ability is meant to let it break the upper limit on the number of a specific card you are normally allowed. That is the intent, and nothing more.

And even if that were not the case, its ability does not extend to other cards, which is why Papa_funk's example holds. There is no legal deck that has 100+ Relentless Rats and also other cards.

I'm just going to point out again that my line of argument has nothing to do with how the rules should work. I know how they should work and I agree with the interpretation of how things should work.

My line is to say that the rule as written do not work the way that they should, due entirely to the fact that the rules are not written with commander in mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-12 2:10 pm 
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specter404 wrote:
But that's not what the ruling says is it?
On the contrary, that is exactly what it says. That you think there is more means you're either not paying attention or you are trying to create confusion on order to get your way. Neither is particularly good.

specter404 wrote:
However we are not talking about the singleton rule, we are talking about a set of deck construction rules wholly unreferenced by the gatherer ruling.

Right - it's not referenced. So why you think it affects it is beyond me.

specter404 wrote:
Gatherer does not cover this situation and as Willbender points out, gatherer is not a replacement for rules, it is a response to a particular question.
No it's not just an answer to a question, it is a particular ruling on that particular card. As such -- that is the rule. No more. Again, that you think it applies to more is through very faulty logic which I have previously pointed out (and which I believe you ignored.)


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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-12 2:11 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
My line is to say that the rule as written do not work the way that they should, due entirely to the fact that the rules are not written with commander in mind.

And you are using horrific logic to say that the rules don't work the way it should -- which does nothing to support your premise.


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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-12 2:20 pm 
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ITT:
Image
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-12 7:54 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm waiting for the next ban announcement:


"BANNED: Relentless Rats, Shadowborn Apostle.

There actually isn't anything wrong with these cards, but because one user wanted to nitpick the comprehensive rules incessantly we are left with no choice but to ban these two cards. Everyone thank specter404."


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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-12 11:35 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Rules Intended To Be Interpreted With Common Sense, Scientists Discover

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SAN DIEGO, CA — A team of chemists have concluded that rules are generally supposed to be interpreted with a good amount of common sense. The groundbreaking results are the result of years of investigation funded by a multimillion dollar government grant program.

"We were surprised by the outcome, but we mixed the brightly colored chemicals and wrote things on our clipboards and the results are conclusive," said the lead researcher in a conference about the pivotal discovery.

"Stress tests in high pressure conditions suggest rules are pretty much always not going to be watertight against every conceivable situation we can throw them up against." However, the lead researcher claimed that "the delicate crystalline structure of the rules can be maintained as long as they are immersed in an unheated solution of common sense and good faith interpretation."

"This is an exciting new time to be alive," said an investor who asked not to be named. "We look forward to further investigations into what kind of institutions might be used to resolve major disputes in rules. The discoveries suggest the establishment of some kind of committee composed of people who are there to use their judgement, which others defer to. We could call them judges. It's hypothesised that a judge could make miniature rules-type things which we're calling rule-lings. I know this sounds wild but the science is promising and we've just barely scratched the surface."

The science world is also eagerly anticipating the results of a project by CERN, in which scientists hope to use the Large Hadron Collider to accelerate users with diametrically opposite stances to extremely high velocities of posting and record how many pages of forum debate can be produced from the collision.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-13 2:39 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
You win, good sir.

/thread


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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-13 5:22 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
spacemonaut wrote:
"We look forward to further investigations into what kind of institutions might be used to resolve major disputes in rules. The discoveries suggest the establishment of some kind of committee composed of people who are there to use their judgement, which others defer to. We could call them judges. It's hypothesised that a judge could make miniature rules-type things which we're calling rule-lings. I know this sounds wild but the science is promising and we've just barely scratched the surface."

OK folks, enough picking on specter404 (although at least your post was funny, unlike Carthain who has only been hostile).

Weeks ago, back on page 2 of this very thread, papa_funk, who is both RC and a former L5 judge, said the rules were actually ambiguous. Some of us would like the rules to be clearly and unambiguously defined. This is not the place to make such a request, but as a 'discussion' it is a perfectly appropriate place. Apologies to Sid and anyone else who is tired of the discussion. It certainly seems to have stagnated by now, but I had some fun with it while people were still making new points.

There is one new thing I want to bring up, actually to argue with one of my own previous points: no, you cannot include negative Relentless Rats in a deck, not because the rules directly contradict it but because such a thing does not exist. WotC's printing mishaps (miscuts, misprints, From the Vault, etc.) have historically affected some players and collectors for better or worse, but thus far they have not printed any cards out of antimatter. And if they did, you still would not be able to include it in your deck because when they came into contact with the other cards in your deck (let's just assume you are playing EDH in a vacuum somewhere, breathing through an oxygen mask or space suit - so we don't have to worry about the cards interacting with air molecules), they would annihilate one another, releasing an explosion of energy.

Simply saying "I have negative ten Relentless Rats in my deck" is not the same as actually having negative ten Relentless Rats in your deck. So that loophole never existed, even ignoring common sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-13 5:31 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
intreped wrote:
Simply saying "I have negative ten Relentless Rats in my deck" is not the same as actually having negative ten Relentless Rats in your deck. So that loophole never existed, even ignoring common sense.

I actually really like how much sense that makes. :P

Thor: “Here's my 110 card deck. I've got negative ten relentless rats in it, so it still works out to 100 total.”
- Tony: “Negative ten relentless rats? Where are they?”
Thor: “In my deck.”
- Tony: “Impressive. Can you show me the negative ten relentless rats in your deck?”
Thor: “Well... they're not there. It's a negative number.”
- Tony: “So if they're not in your deck? So your deck is just those 110 cards?”
Thor: “... I'll take some cards out.”

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Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


Last edited by spacemonaut on 2018-Nov-13 5:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-13 5:52 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
intreped wrote:
Carthain who has only been hostile

Sorry if I get touchy when I spend time to try to explain things, and then seemingly get overlooked repeatedly and then told my logic is invalid due to much sketchier logic.


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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-13 11:18 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Willbender wrote:
You are completely misunderstanding what the "Gather Rulings" are. They are not actually the rules for those cards. They are rules clarifications for questions that often come up. They are a card-specific FAQ - they do not address everything, just some of the more common questions, and when the Comprehensive Rules change, the FAQ is overridden by those changes (and quickly updated to reflect those changes).

Carthain wrote:
No it's not just an answer to a question, it is a particular ruling on that particular card. As such -- that is the rule. No more. Again, that you think it applies to more is through very faulty logic which I have previously pointed out (and which I believe you ignored.)


This is an impasse. Gatherer to the best of my understanding is a ruling of how a rule should work in a situation which has or is likely to come up. It provides further detail for the given set of circumstances. The only point of reference I have for that is this judge blog article that mentions briefly in the first paragraph what gatherer is:https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/2013/05/gatherer-rulings-arent-always-correct-you-cant-abuse-errors/.
If you take the wording of the gatherer ruling to be a direct replacement for the card text then I understand how you can come to the conclusion that you have, however given the incredibly narrow scope of some of the gatherer rulings that exist I think this is an inappropriate line to take.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-13 1:31 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
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Okay, the "don't always trust rulings" I am fine with as that blog entry is mostly talking about "out of date rulings" -- I don't think anybody is claiming that here.

Now for the claim that some rulings are very narrow in scope. Do you have examples? And I mean ones that are narrow in scope, don't have additional rulings to cover other areas/situations, and ideally can lead to possible confusion (although, that's not as required as the other two to back up your claim.)

I'd like to see this set of rulings from which you are creating a baseline from which to judge this ruling by.


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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-13 3:16 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I have a good example of this to add in a moment, but lets have a look at a few from dominaria to get a basline:
Quote:
Garna, the Bloodflame
3BR
Legendary Creature — Human Warrior
3/3
Flash
When Garna, the Bloodflame enters the battlefield, return to your hand all creature cards in your graveyard that were put there from anywhere this turn.
Other creatures you control have haste.

• Which creature cards to return to your hand is determined as Garna's triggered ability resolves. If Garna somehow finds its way into your graveyard before that, perhaps due to the "legend rule," it will be returned to your hand.

This doesn't replace the rule, it adds to it and explains a narrow situation in which Garna might be able to return itself
Quote:
Drudge Sentinel
2B
Creature — Skeleton Warrior
2/1
3: Tap Drudge Sentinel. It gains indestructible until end of turn. (Damage and effects that say "destroy" don't destroy it.)

• You can activate Drudge Sentinel's ability even if it's already tapped. It will still gain indestructible.

If drudge sentinel is already tapped can I still use the ability that taps it? A common question that is expected to be asked about a specific situation

Quote:
Demonic Vigor
B
Enchantment — Aura
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature gets +1/+1.
When enchanted creature dies, return that card to its owner's hand.

• Demonic Vigor can enchant a token, but its last ability won't return the token to your hand.

Does this mean that demonic vigor can only enchant a token? Of course not, it is simply adding detail to the rule written on the card.

From this small sample we can see how the rulings are not an all-encompassing replacement for the card text, but rather an addition or addendum to the rules provides for in the MCR.

You have asserted that because the ruling on relentless rats "lets you ignore the four of rule" that means that relentless rats is only allowed to ignore that rule. So lets apply that to the rulings for soulblade corruptor. I wont quote the whole thing as there are a bunch of rules about partner that aren't particularly relevant here, I chose this card because it also has a ruling that references the cards "second ability" much like with RR
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=445985
Quote:
08/06/2018 Soulblade Corrupter’s last ability won’t trigger if a creature attacks a planeswalker.
08/06/2018 Soulblade Corrupter’s last ability won’t trigger if a creature without any +1/+1 counters on it attacks and receives a +1/+1 counter any time after attacking.
08/06/2018 Soulblade Corrupter’s last ability will trigger if a creature an opponent controls with a +1/+1 counter on it attacks another player who’s also your opponent.

So based on what you have said about RR, soulblade corrupter will now only trigger if a creature an opponent controls attacks a player who is also your opponent.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-13 5:47 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
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specter404 wrote:
From this small sample we can see how the rulings are not an all-encompassing replacement for the card text, but rather an addition or addendum to the rules provides for in the MCR.

You have asserted that because the ruling on relentless rats "lets you ignore the four of rule" that means that relentless rats is only allowed to ignore that rule.

No. This portion of the thread came about because you specifically stated that since Gatherer says "The second ability of Relentless Rats lets you ignore the “four-of” rule. It doesn’t let you ignore format legality." that format legality is the only rule it doesn't break. This is untrue as Gatherer is a FAQ and not a rules document, and so throws you back to the CR.

The CR specifies that "Whenever a card’s text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation." In this case, the specific situation is the question of "how many copies can I include?" So, the specific rule the card's text allows you to override is the "four-of" rule (and analogous rules such as Commander's "one-of" rule). The Gatherer card FAQ even addresses any ambiguity by specifying that it's the "four-of" rule that's being talked about. Other rules that can limit it for reasons other than "how many copies of this can I include" will still limit it (format legality, color identity, deck limits, etc.).

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Relentless Rats and Commander
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-14 2:09 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
So based on what you have said about RR, soulblade corrupter will now only trigger if a creature an opponent controls attacks a player who is also your opponent.

These are not the same as the relentless rats ruling.

This is a clarification about a specific situation on when the ability can trigger, the rat's entry is a clarification about how the ability works.

Context is key here.

Let's take a look at your baselines and compare to how they are NOT the same as the relentless rats ruling.

Garna: Clarification on what is included based off of timing. Compare to Rats clarifying how the ability works.
Drudge Sentinel: Clarification on if you can activate the ability when a condition is true. Compare to Rats clarifying how the ability works.
Demonic Vigor: Mentions what it can do, and what happens in that situation. Compare to Rats clarifying how the ability works.
Soulblade Corrupter: Mentions situations when it will (and won't) trigger. Nothing in the wording implies that it removes the base assumption of when it will trigger except for the ones that say it won't trigger in certain situations.

Now, the Demonic Vigor one is the closest example you have. Note however that the ruling says that the demonic vigor "can" do something. Rats doesn't have that kind of wording, it's much more of a "this is what it does" wording. It's similar to me saying "Can you pass me the napkins" vs "Pass me the napkins." One allows for other outcomes, while the latter doesn't (assuming you don't ignore what is said -- as nobody has yet suggested that we just ignore the gatherer rulings.)

None of your examples are clarifications in the same way that the rats' ruling is a clarification. Yours are often "can/can't in X situation" while the rats is "how it works". So trying to treat the rulings in exactly the same manner is not going to get you the end result that you should.


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