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MTG Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander • View topic - A question for a rules guru

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 Post subject: A question for a rules guru
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-23 4:24 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
So this happened during a draft tonight...

I attack my opponent with a . After blocks, I cast the Invert half of on it, let it resolve, and then . What is the urchin's P/T when this is all done? My opponent and I both came to the conclusion that it was an 8/1, but I was discussing this later on with someone else who claimed it should be 7/2. Which is correct and why?

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 Post subject: Re: A question for a rules guru
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-23 4:56 pm 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
Sure, I'll take a stab at it. I think I can answer this one correctly.
is a 1/3

1) Casting Invert causes Fire Urchin's ability to trigger, putting it's +1/+0 boost on the stack above Invert. Result of ability resolution is a 2/3 Fire Urchin.
2) Invert Resolves, resulting in a 3/2 Fire Urchin.
3) Casting causes Fire Urchin's ability to trigger, putting it's +1/+0 boost on the stack above Sure Strike, resulting in a 4/2 Fire Urchin.
4) Sure Strike Resolves, resulting in a 7/2 Fire Urchin.

This all happens because 's trigger is on cast, not on spell resolution (such as an ETB effect). So the power boost will always resolve before the spell you cast. Subsequent instants played before resolution of spells and abilities would look like the following:

(Top of stack)
Fire Urchin's triggered ability
Instant spell
Fire Urchin's triggered ability
Instant or Sorcery spell
(Bottom of Stack)

I hope this helped.


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 Post subject: Re: A question for a rules guru
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-23 5:14 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: A question for a rules guru
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-24 12:57 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon

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 Post subject: Re: A question for a rules guru
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-24 1:35 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
It's worth noting that the p/t switch used to be timestamped and would only swap the p/t that happened before the swap.


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 Post subject: Re: A question for a rules guru
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-24 2:26 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Well that sucks... at least I know now. Layers are stupid.

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"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: A question for a rules guru
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-24 3:29 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
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They're actually a lot better than they used to be.


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 Post subject: Re: A question for a rules guru
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-24 3:32 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire

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"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: A question for a rules guru
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-24 3:39 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
Layers are indeed stupid... how long ago was it that the timestamp would have allowed for the interactions I mentioned to take place?

It just seems odd from a rules perspective to have something like a P/T boost spell (Invert) to resolve, but continue to check well after the fact. That resolving Invert and then casting 20 spells could result in like a 3/22+ is crazy...


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 Post subject: Re: A question for a rules guru
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-24 3:43 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon


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 Post subject: Re: A question for a rules guru
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-24 5:32 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon

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Beloved precons: ; ; .


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 Post subject: Re: A question for a rules guru
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-24 8:00 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: A question for a rules guru
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-24 7:48 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-02 3:54 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Germany, near Berlin
Historic addendum:
If you look at older cards (read: really old ones, like ), you will find this oddity of P/T-Switching spelled out. I guess in these "ancient times" of Magic they had to make a decision how to handle later buffs.

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Generals:
too many, and always changing... except:

Rakdos, Lord of Riots (Demon Tribal)
Melek, Izzet Paragon (Dragonstorm) -> these must stay because of a house rule


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 Post subject: Re: A question for a rules guru
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-25 9:40 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I love layers questions but mostly because I committed a fair amount of effort learning about them. The answer given is correct, you apply the effects in the order set out in CR613.

For a handy reference guide, I recommend the phone app - MTG: Judge Core App. It is designed by a group of judges and can be used offline.

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