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 Post subject: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-21 7:55 am 

Joined: 2019-Feb-21 7:46 am
Age: Hatchling
There is a post from 2010 that if a commander is shuffled it should be distinguishable in library and it's location in library should be known (which card in library is it). Is it still true or not? What about a commander in hand, a morphed commander on the battlefield, a commander exiled faced down by another player (for example Gonti's ETB)?
Could I get an official, current ruling for that from somebody from Rules Committee?


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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-21 8:25 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
No, that's not true. It should be indistinguishable from other cards in your deck/hand/etc.

A commander in play will be able to be tracked: All players know the morph was played from the command zone, and each morph needs to be tracked to distinguish between them (you can't play 3 card monte with morphs in order to confuse players.)

As for a ruling on Gonti's ETB -- I'm not sure on that one.

Edit: For those curious, I believe the OP is talking about This post from Genomancer


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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-21 12:38 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Yeah I think the confusion here lies in the "always know the location" of a Commander. For hidden zones (library, hand, face-down in exile) that location is "in the library" or "in the hand" or "face down in exile"

I do have a follow up question though; If your Commander is Akroma, Angel of Fury and you play it as a morph from your hand, and then it hits an opponent without un-morphing, are you then obligated to reveal it as Akroma so the Commander damage counts?

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-21 5:02 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jan-25 4:50 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Man this post brings back memories. The genomancer post is outdated and the rules have changed a few times to handle commanders in hidden zones. You use the same sleeves if your general is in your library/hand. The current rulings are that if a commander gets tucked the owner gets to decide to use the commander replacement trigger. If they decide not to use it, say against unexpectedly absent, and then you use gonti, you can perma exile their commander.

Source:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18295

Viperion wrote:
are you then obligated to reveal it as Akroma so the Commander damage counts?

Yup, doesn't matter how it became a 2/2 face down creature. You can't secretly deal 21 "commander damage" with your face down General. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17560

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-21 5:31 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
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Viperion wrote:
I do have a follow up question though; If your Commander is Akroma, Angel of Fury and you play it as a morph from your hand, and then it hits an opponent without un-morphing, are you then obligated to reveal it as Akroma so the Commander damage counts?

I believe you are obligated to announce it as Akroma when its played as a morph due to 'commanderness'.

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-21 6:22 pm 

Joined: 2019-Feb-21 7:46 am
Age: Hatchling
When you play a morph from your hand do you have to announce that it is your commander?
When somebody uses Gonti, Lord of Luxury or Praetor's Grasp does he have to inform everyone that the commander is in fact in exile (face down)?


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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-22 1:06 am 
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MRHblue wrote:
Viperion wrote:
I do have a follow up question though; If your Commander is Akroma, Angel of Fury and you play it as a morph from your hand, and then it hits an opponent without un-morphing, are you then obligated to reveal it as Akroma so the Commander damage counts?

I believe you are obligated to announce it as Akroma when its played as a morph due to 'commanderness'.

Agreed. I mean ... if your commander has morph, and your commander went to your hand, I'm pretty sure everyone is going to assume the next morph you play is your commander anyways.

Azerim wrote:
When somebody uses Gonti, Lord of Luxury or Praetor's Grasp does he have to inform everyone that the commander is in fact in exile (face down)?

I don't think so. There's nothing in the rules for this, as the # of times this would happen has reduced since you can return your commander to the command zone instead of it going to your hand/graveyard/library or exile zone. So the rule about revealing the commander and putting it into the command zone from exile has been removed.


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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-22 2:34 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I don't have a citation, but if I recall correctly, the way it works now is that if a player is able to look at and see the face down exiled Commander they are obligated to give the owner the opportunity to apply the replacement effect and send it back to the command zone. Pretty much the only time you can face down exile a general is if it ended up in the library and you hit it with pyxis of pandemonium. Because you exile the top card face down without looking at it.


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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-22 2:43 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I'm still a little upset about facedown commanders.

I had dreams of Building Red Akroma and using Shenanigans and Illusionary Mask... but no! Stupid rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-22 2:46 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I'd be very interested to see an up-to-date (moreso than 2010) clarification from this from the RC, including on the scenario where we exile a card face-down from the library that might be a commander.

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-22 2:53 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
cryogen wrote:
I don't have a citation, but if I recall correctly, the way it works now is that if a player is able to look at and see the face down exiled Commander they are obligated to give the owner the opportunity to apply the replacement effect and send it back to the command zone. Pretty much the only time you can face down exile a general is if it ended up in the library and you hit it with pyxis of pandemonium. Because you exile the top card face down without looking at it.

903.13. If a card is put into the exile zone face down from anywhere, and a player is allowed to look at that card in exile, the player must immediately do so. If it’s a commander owned by another player, the player that looked at it turns it face up and puts it into the command zone.

You could force a facedown exile with a couple of cards and a Mindslaver given the "owned by another player"

Or maybe Donate a Knowledge Vault and use Shenanigans and the Mindslaver.

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-22 3:43 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim: You need to update whatever you are referencing. There is no 903.13 anymore.

903.11 is all about Brawl, and that's as high as 903 goes.

The rule you quoted is old, and no longer around (it didn't just shift numbers) as far as I can see.


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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-22 4:20 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jan-25 4:50 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
@ cryogen
That rule is outdated see my previous post for the most recent rules information and links to their sources.

As for announcing your general is a facedown card when you first play it. I think it kinda inherently breaks the idea behind morph. I only announce/reveal it if it is relevant, like if it's about to do commander damage

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-22 5:44 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Bruticus wrote:
@ cryogen
That rule is outdated see my previous post for the most recent rules information and links to their sources.

As for announcing your general is a facedown card when you first play it. I think it kinda inherently breaks the idea behind morph. I only announce/reveal it if it is relevant, like if it's about to do commander damage


Oh whoops sorry about that. Thanks for the clarification.


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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-22 6:51 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Bruticus wrote:
The current rulings are that if a commander gets tucked the owner gets to decide to use the commander replacement trigger.

Nitpicky time: It's a replacement effect, not a triggered effect. Which means if you do the replacement then the commander never goes to the zone it was going to go to (which matters for commanders like Child of Alara, Kokusho, etc.)


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