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MTG Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander • View topic - Ethical aspects of conceading

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 Post subject: Ethical aspects of conceading
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-22 7:23 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
I want to talk about the 'moral' aspects of conceding and if it is or is not a good practice

I think conceding is a 'bad player's' choice (bad not for skill reasons) and these are my thoughts abut it.

Sometimes in some games we will want it to end because it is looking bad for us, one or more opponents just focuses on us, or we are mana screw, or we misplayed a lot or any other reason that is taking the fun away from us.

I know the feeling, I have been there a lot of times and I will be there a lot more, but no matter hw bad is the game for me, no matter how much I want to concede I don't do it for these reasons

1. It is a game we play with friends, so, we should have our focus on having fun altogether, if I am the victim of a focus by two players and I rage-quit the game, I will leave the table, but the bad feeling will stay at the table, so why ruining the game for the other players?

2. The game is not over for us until our life total get's 0, so we can try to overcome the problems, maybe winning sometimes will be very out of our reach in some games, but we can try, we can learn, we can take the opportunity to study how our deck behaves against such games and how to improve it.

3, Maybe one or 2 players are focusing on us to 'have revenge' for past games, and that is ok too, I remember a session were I won 2 games in a row, one player was very salty because I killed him first at 1st game, then he 'side boarded' tons of counter spells with the sole focus of not letting me play and I won the 2nd game too and other player got salted, so when we got to the 3rd game, I knew they will be focusing me, I got mana screw, I had 5 lands at turn 7 and one of my opponents played aiming for 3 of my 5 lands, so it was pretty much game over for me, but I didn't concede, I play to the end working hard to overcome the situation, to survive long enough and try to win, I din't won, I was killed first, they had the blood they wanted and we all had fun, no bad feeling at my side of the table.

So, if the players are focusing you because you won too many games, or you commander is scary or any other reason, just suck it up

4. Some times some one will cast on us, nobody want's our opponents having our stuff, but conceding to an effect like this, or a annihilator X or any other bad stuff just ruins the game for your friends.

What is the deal then? The opponents can't target us bribery or similar effects because 'in response' we will concede and it will be a wasted attack or a 'counterspell like'?. For me this kind of behavior show bad sportsmanship to say the least.

5. Let people do their magic, if you are in a 1v1 against the last player, and he will attack us for lethal, let him do it, it wont take more than 30 seconds, do you feel better saying 'concede' than 'lose'? is that it?

So many times I saw that a player gets his engine going, he is getting the upper hand against the last one, the last player knows the game is not in his favor, so he concedes, well that is also bad sportsmanship, because you may find a way to overcome it, and even if you don't, the winning player build his or her deck to do some magic and it is doing it, by conceding 2 or 3 turns earlier we are taking away his fun


What are your thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Ethical aspects of conceading
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-22 8:13 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
How is conceding when you know you can't win any different from folding in poker?


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 Post subject: Re: Ethical aspects of conceading
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-22 9:55 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Conceding to deny another player something is just poor sportsmanship. Let them have their life gain

Conceding because you have no hope of winning or are being focused on in a way which ruins the game for you is fine. Let the game finish faster so you can play again sooner.

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 Post subject: Re: Ethical aspects of conceading
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-22 12:32 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Ethical aspects of conceading
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-23 2:19 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Kinda of an interesting topic, although I'm not sure the numbered points are the best aspects of when to concede or not.

I agree with Niheloim... conceding comes down to sportsmanship. Not like the MTG Judge rules definition of sporting/unsporting -- I mean the classic definition, where players enjoy a competition for its own sake, and for the companionship of the competitors. For me, one of the core ideas of sportsmanship is making a reasonable, good faith effort to play your best game, while respecting your opponents efforts to do the same.

This idea of moderates a lot of EDH behavior...

Are you attacking your friend because he killed your Bird of Paradise last game? Unreasonable.
Are you attacking your friend because this is your best avenue to win? Reasonable
Are you playing your broken net deck because it will crush your friends' scrub decks? Unreasonable.
Are you playing your broken net deck because you expect your friends to do the same? Reasonable.

This covers deciding when to concede as well. Has one player established a dominant position after everyone at the table has exhausted their best efforts? Then it's fine for everyone to concede. Does a player think they still have an out to trump the lead player? If yes, then no one should concede -- that player should have the chance to make the best game of it that they can. (Competitive Go has a interesting culture around this idea... In Go, if you've clearly lost, it's considered rude to keep playing. But if it's not clear, both players are expected to keep playing 'til a clear winner emerges.)

Plays like conceding to life gain or Gilded Drake are clearly unsportsmanlike. Not only are you not playing your best game, you're actively denying your opponents' best game as well.

With all that said, I don't like the idea of using ethics or sportsmanship or whatever to trap people at tables where they're miserable.

Ie... For a while, I was playing with a couple Legacy players that who were new to EDH. They had picked up the idea that if you had a or , you should activate it immediately (usually a fine play in Legacy -- not as much in EDH). So they constantly got blown out by , , Coffers, etc. One night we got table wiped 3 times in a row by Derevi, losing each time to some Cradle-powered idiocy (including an especially foolish game where one Legacy bro Strip Mine'd the others Strip Mine). Game 4, my t1 play was shock land pass, and Legacy guy to my left's play was Wasteland, waste your shock.

So I scooped. I don't know if that player was trying to be funny, or if he genuinely thought he was making a smart play; either way, it seemed unreasonable to me.

I saw a lot of similar walk-aways when I was working events regularly; there are wildly divergent ideas about what a good game looks like, and many (most?) players will say something like, "Oops, this is not for me," and leave, which I think is totally fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Ethical aspects of conceading
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-23 4:22 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Ethical aspects of conceading
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-23 6:20 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-24 8:05 pm
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 Post subject: Re: Ethical aspects of conceading
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-23 8:25 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Ethical aspects of conceading
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-23 11:34 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Ethical aspects of conceading
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-24 1:42 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-24 8:05 pm
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 Post subject: Re: Ethical aspects of conceading
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-26 9:29 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Ethical aspects of conceading
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-29 1:40 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake

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 Post subject: Re: Ethical aspects of conceading
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-29 7:56 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
99% of the time you should not be conceding unless it's your turn before you untap (or the game is simply all-but-won and you are drawing just to see if it's your one card, once chance at hope).
Conceding when someone else builds their combo and has the win on board is fine. I see no rudeness in saving time just because you don't care if you dead to craterhoof at -12 or -23, cause whats the difference.

There is not much that needs to be explained, you are a garbo person if you spitefully scoop. It's not a political tactic, it's a pain in everyone's ass. I wouldn't presume to *make* a person play a game they don't want to, or that they are losing and not enjoying (and sometimes we just have to leave).

But really the only reason quitting is a thing is simply because you can't be made to play. The game is not designed around or intended for it to 'be a thing' that you can spite scoop, it's not designed for scooping to be a political play, it's actually just the opposite of play; "You Win". This merely does not translate well to having 3+ group play, and the fact that it exists does not justify using it to screw people.

"Attack you for lethal with my Edric army, i can't get through to other players' blockers"
"[s]I scoop, no draw triggers for you[/s]" "Fuck yourself."

*P4 has an enormous board and p1, p2, p3 do not.*
P1: "I cast insurrection"
P4: "[s]I scoop, i'm dead either way but i can save them![/s]" "Fuck yourself."

"[s]I attack with all my creatures in the most nonsense manner. I cast Armageddon. Okay, i scoop cause i'm dead next turn anyway[/s]" "Fuck this gaaaaaame! Wooh!"


Merely an anecdote, but one time i played a commander event and the prize support was reasonably high. I supposed it would be high power and brought my best deck. At the time, it wasn't even a cedh deck. But i had a big beautiful board state, and 2 of the casual-er players were unable to keep up with my ramp and countermagic and value. The 4th person had an annihilator eldrazi and some other big'uns but not enough to truly 1v1 me on the side and take over just yet They had told us a few turns ago their ride was there and they'd have to leave. They get to their turn and attack me all out, it's a losing battle for both of us. He casts supreme verdict, i ProphetofKruphix-speed clone my Venser to put it in his hand - which i was happy with since he was a smug pos and thought uncounterable was gonna be the end of me. He has 8 mana though, i did not realize, and simply casts it again, then scoops and says "It's not really fair they don't have a chance to beat you, i tried guys" and just leaves. That just sticks out to me as one of the worst and weirdest even though that was 2013 probably but all the above are things i've seen.


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 Post subject: Re: Ethical aspects of conceading
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-29 8:44 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Maybe we can whisper to the RC the suggestion of adding a rule about conceding, only at sorcery speed

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 Post subject: Re: Ethical aspects of conceading
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-29 8:55 am 
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