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 Post subject: Rofellos
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-17 6:15 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-14 5:45 pm
Age: Drake
Location: US
After thinking about it, and looking at a few things, I figured I'd just come here and ask.

Is there a possibility that as of now, Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary can be re-evaluated. With a commander like Selvala, Heart of the Wilds out now, is Rofellos still "that" scary. I've considered the early/mid/late game, but atnleast by the late game it makes sense for his impact to be doing something game ending, and even then we're still not factoring in if we've burned out our hand or not, however, with a burned out hand having 7-10 mana and a Rofellos on board is very underwhelming.

Would like to hear the insights of everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Rofellos
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-17 6:35 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
from personal experience, rofellos is terrifying and in a completely different league from selvala. Selvala requires an actual board state to really kick off, rofls just needs the mana it took to cast him and God help you if rofls hits any sort of land ramp, game basically over. Also keep in mind none of the tools that makes selvala so disgusting existed when rofls was legal, green now has access to FAR better cards. The last time I played vs a rofls deck they were running things like Gigantomancer and Spearbreaker Behemoth, we now have access to cards like Yeva, Nature's Herald, Heroic Intervention, Craterhoof Behemoth, Shamanic Revelation and a whole hell of a lot more.

In a casual meta, rofls pretty much wins every time and nothing like that needs to be reintroduced into the format.

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 Post subject: Re: Rofellos
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-17 8:29 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
Oh please oh please give me back my Roflcoptor.
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Rofellos
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-17 11:31 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Kixar wrote:
With a commander like Selvala, Heart of the Wilds out now, is Rofellos still "that" scary.

Selvala is already kill-on-sight. Rofellos is more degenerate. Selvala doesn't randomly kill you turn 3 because Umbral Mantle.

So.... no.

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 Post subject: Re: Rofellos
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-17 12:34 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-18 11:59 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I used to run Rofellos in my Omnath deck. My best game was 3 turns.

T1:
Wirewood Lodge,
Cast Mana Vault,
Exile Elvish Spirit Guide
Cast Skyshroud Claim,
Cast Gaea's Touch,
Play 2nd Forest,
Sac Touch to cast Rofellos

T2:
Tap 3 forests, tap Rofellos for 3 (6 Green.)
Tap lodge to Untap Rofellos (5 green)
Tap Rofellos for 3 more. (8 green.)
Cast New Frontiers for 7.

T3:
Tap 10 forests. (10 green.)
Tap Rofellos (20 green)
Untap Rofellos (19 green)
Tap Rofellos (29 green)
I had planned on simply casting a 26/26 Omnath that turn, but I drew and cast Genesis Wave for 26 instead.

The table scooped. I don't know how much mana he would have tapped for on turn 4, but it would have been silly.

Rofellos makes plays like that possible. And to be honest in the right build he's really Consistent.

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 Post subject: Re: Rofellos
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-20 11:46 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
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There's no real need to re-evaluate Rofellos to understand how broken it remains. Way too much mana way too fast way too consistently.

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 Post subject: Re: Rofellos
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-22 12:22 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Selvala doesn't randomly kill you turn 3 because Umbral Mantle.

I mean... yeah it does. It just also requires a pump spell or a cheap fatty.


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 Post subject: Re: Rofellos
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-22 6:49 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
majikal wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Selvala doesn't randomly kill you turn 3 because Umbral Mantle.

I mean... yeah it does. It just also requires a pump spell or a cheap fatty.

Yeah, and draws cards.

Not that Rofellos needs to be unbanned, but anyone thinking Selvala isn't on the same level needs to replay some matches against their decks.


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 Post subject: Re: Rofellos
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-22 8:09 am 

Joined: 2016-Sep-16 11:05 pm
Age: Wyvern
Sovarius wrote:
majikal wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Selvala doesn't randomly kill you turn 3 because Umbral Mantle.

I mean... yeah it does. It just also requires a pump spell or a cheap fatty.

Yeah, and draws cards.

Not that Rofellos needs to be unbanned, but anyone thinking Selvala isn't on the same level needs to replay some matches against their decks.


I have a reasonably well tuned Selvala deck that specifically avoids paradox engine and only 1 infinite combo to keep it 'fair'. I can consistently table kill by turns 4-6 unless Selvala is killed repeatedly. Rofellos might be 1-2 turns faster, but there isn't much difference between a turn 4 and a turn 5 table kill.

The primary differences I believe is that Rofellos rewards players for doing what green does best. The weakness is having to use cards to build that synergy and thus you have fewer game winners. Selvala's weakness is that she requires a second piece in the form of a creature. The advantage for Selvala being that you can skip the normal mana accelerators present in most decks. I don't even have a Sol Ring in mine. My only accelerators are tuned to allow a T2 Selvala drop.


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 Post subject: Re: Rofellos
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-22 3:11 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
crimson wrote:
The advantage for Selvala being that you can skip the normal mana accelerators present in most decks.


I think you got this backwards. It's Rofellos who can skip normal accelerators. Assuming he isn't killed immediately, Rof is a guaranteed 6 mana on T3. Use that mana for a Paradox Engine or an Immortal Sun or an Abundance + Sylvan Library or whatever and unless you're disrupted very soon, that's game. The only ramp spells Rof ever runs are cards like Nature's Lore which he makes effectively free, as well as ways to untap him.

It's been discussed ad nauseam, but while Rofellos' ceiling isn't quite as high as Selvala's, his floor is miles above hers. You could make the (IMO unconvincing) argument that in a fully tuned no-holds-barred deck/meta Selvala might be stronger, but across the gamut of EDH as a whole there is no comparison. Rofellos comes out earlier, requires zero support to do wacky things, is harder to shut down, and scales harder late game. Selvala requires some build-around to be broken, while 80%+ of mono green decks would probably be stronger if they kept the same strategy but switched to him and swapped out a card or two.


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 Post subject: Re: Rofellos
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-23 11:17 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Sovarius wrote:
majikal wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Selvala doesn't randomly kill you turn 3 because Umbral Mantle.

I mean... yeah it does. It just also requires a pump spell or a cheap fatty.

Yeah, and draws cards.

Not that Rofellos needs to be unbanned, but anyone thinking Selvala isn't on the same level needs to replay some matches against their decks.

Look, I'm not trying to say Selvala is fair. If anything, I'd like her banned too. Comparisons work both ways. But she doesn't draw a hand with Umbral Mantle and guarantee that whichever poor bastard doesn't have a blocker turn 3 is dead. Rofellos does. She also comes down a turn slower and requires mana to make mana, AND needs creatures in play to accomplish this, not just land. I think U_Kong put it well.

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 Post subject: Re: Rofellos
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-26 9:41 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sheldon wrote:
There's no real need to re-evaluate Rofellos to understand how broken it remains. Way too much mana way too fast way too consistently.


What the Big S. said.
There was a halcyon era where Rofellos and Emrakul were both legal.
That was...fun. I had to run Darkblast, multiple Edicts and Zuran Orb to protect against Plow Under.

Rofellos is nuts. Even Duel Commander doesn't allow him except in the 99, and that format has an extremely high removal-to-creature count. ANd 20 life.
In this format with the mana rocks? It would be crazy crazy. Finale of Green Stuff for 10 on turn 3 or 4, getting an Eldrazi or something silly, with Haste, and so on. Rofellos would become centralizing, people would kill it on sight or steal it to power their green ramp.

Nah. There are thiings I certainly think are safe to unban (Coalition Victory, Worldfire et al.) but Rofellos and Griselbrand and Bargain and so on should stay far, far away.

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 Post subject: Re: Rofellos
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-29 10:35 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
It's been said before, but I'll throw it in again, the difference between Selvala and Rofellos is wrath of god.

Wraths are common place in commander, and when you play wrath of god you reset Selvala back to 0. When the opponent replays Selvala, they also need to find more fatties to put into play before she can tap for big mana, there is a rebuilding phase.

When you wrath Rofellos, on the following turn they replay him and they are right back to where they were before the wrath, all of the mana is still available. No need to rebuild, just go back to casting ridiculous things.

Both can be broken, Selvala is very very good, and having big creatures is not hard to do, however can you honestly compare the need to have big creatures in play to the need to have forests? As night follows day, Rofellos has 6 mana on turn 3, and you just cant beat that consistency.

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 Post subject: Re: Rofellos
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-08 12:43 pm 

Joined: 2019-May-18 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
Actually I think rofls would be even more powerful today than ever, with new ramp pieces, new green leyline and more payoffs then ever. There isn't a lot that stops a dork from tapping for mana, if you dont have the kill spell in hand and castable, you probably just lose.


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 Post subject: Re: Rofellos
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-09 10:29 am 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-06 10:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle
heh, for a brief sweet time, I remember t3 Prime Times off of Rofellos.

While I would not want him unbanned completely, I do miss him being allowed in the 99. I don't think it's worth the trouble of two ban lists but one can day dream.

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