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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-11 1:14 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Wyvern
Viperion wrote:
Because you play it. If it resolves Whether the RN ETB'ing triggers anything or not, the caster of RN gets priority first. They can activate RN's return clause, which along with sacrificing a creature returns RN to its owners hand as a cost. That can't be responded to. So if RN resolves, it can be put back into its owners hand literally before anyone can do anything about it. Then the ability resolves and you get the target creature from your graveyard onto the battlefield.

EDIT: I messed it up, the above is correct now


This is mostly correct, except for the part about ETB triggers. If Recurring Nightmare entering the battlefield causes any triggers or abilities to be put on the stack, everyone else (including the owner of Recurring Nightmare) has a chance to respond to that trigger. This provides a window of time for other people to use instant speed removal to get rid of the Recurring Nightmare before it's owner can activate it's ability (since the ability is sorcery speed and can't be activated while anything is on the stack.) If Recurring Nightmare entering the battlefield doesn't cause any abilities to trigger, however, Viperion is correct that the caster retains priority and can use the ability right away (provided there are legal targets available) and return Recurring Nightmare to hand as a cost, which can't be responded to.

For reference here is a copy of the gatherer ruling for the card:

If you cast this as normal during your main phase, it will enter the battlefield and you’ll receive priority. If no abilities trigger because of this, you can activate its ability immediately, before any other player has a chance to remove it from the battlefield.


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-11 2:05 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
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I am struggling to think of any commonly played cards that have a trigger when an opponents' enchantment enters. Can anyone think of some?

There are plenty of your own but I'm assuming if you're playing recurring nightmare you are less likely to be playing enchantress effects.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-11 2:35 pm 
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CowsCowsCows wrote:
This is mostly correct, except for the part about ETB triggers. If Recurring Nightmare entering the battlefield causes any triggers or abilities to be put on the stack, everyone else (including the owner of Recurring Nightmare) has a chance to respond to that trigger. This provides a window of time for other people to use instant speed removal to get rid of the Recurring Nightmare before it's owner can activate it's ability (since the ability is sorcery speed and can't be activated while anything is on the stack.) If Recurring Nightmare entering the battlefield doesn't cause any abilities to trigger, however, Viperion is correct that the caster retains priority and can use the ability right away (provided there are legal targets available) and return Recurring Nightmare to hand as a cost, which can't be responded to.

Yeah sorry you're right I blanked on the "as a sorcery" clause.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-11 4:37 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
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specter404 wrote:
I am struggling to think of any commonly played cards that have a trigger when an opponents' enchantment enters. Can anyone think of some?

There are plenty of your own but I'm assuming if you're playing recurring nightmare you are less likely to be playing enchantress effects.


Only one I can think of is Confusion in the Ranks


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-11 6:35 pm 
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cryogen wrote:
The issue I have with the card, and why I feel it should remained banned (as much as I want to play it outside my cube) is that there are basically two modes to the card. It either sits in your hand because you never cast it into a field where you can't immediately use it, or you loop it over and over - usually until you run out of mana. And the problem I have with the latter is that this is a very repetitive game state to the point that the card is centralizing (not Prime Time where everyone wants a piece, but more Prophet where the game halts until it's dealt with).


As a longtime RecSur player, I'm very much on the Recurring Nightmare fanboy boat. But what Cryogen points out is exactly my fear (the second point, the first point doesn't really make it banworthy... also, as a sidenote, I'm curious if that experience with the card comes from playing cube; regular deck construction makes it (obv) a lot easier to enable RN properly).

DegenerateGameGeek wrote:
I would argue that it is not as troublesome as it once was. There is a wide range of low-cmc artifacts that can be played in any deck (Tormod's Crypt, Relic Of Progenitus, Grafdigger's Cage, Crook Of Condemnation, Silent Gravestone, etc), along with an equally wide range of color-specific cards (Rest In Peace, Leyline Of The Void, Nihil Spellbomb, etc) that simply by their presence on the table prevent Recurring Nightmare from being cast until they are dealt with.


This is true to some extent. Solid graveyard hate has existed for a long time, the new (relatively speaking cause I'm old) low cmc artifacts like Grafdigger's Cage just make it easier to splash it into colors that didn't have access to solid hate. Crypt was around before RN was printed though, and it's not exactly a format staple. And to consistently answer RN you need more than one card in your 99. Because graveyard recursion is a major theme in EDH I'd go as far as to say the usual response "run more answers isn't good advice" isn't applicable here, because people should be running more yard hate already, but people just... don't. Look where Crypt is played: https://edhrec.com/cards/tormods-crypt. It's not as if there aren't very strong graveyard generals around, and almost every deck has some form of recursion. If unbanning RN leads to more dedicated yard hate slots it has a format warping effect, but for once that might be benevolent. But the thing is, single use yard hate is hardly effective against RN. Force the hate and simply recur the next thing in your graveyard. Which leaves the continuous yard hate like RiP and Leyline, but these are played even less than Crypt. It'd make the RN player include enchantment hate (which means it won't show in every deck with black, and that is a good thing), but surely just looping Reclamation Sage every turn is enough value?

One thing that bothers me is what unbanning it would do to it's price. Not really my problem as I own a couple, but I wouldn't be suprised if it was over 100 bucks overnight. That might anger people, but banning it again might piss people off to no end. Hopefully not my problem either ;)

CowsCowsCows wrote:
specter404 wrote:
I am struggling to think of any commonly played cards that have a trigger when an opponents' enchantment enters. Can anyone think of some?

There are plenty of your own but I'm assuming if you're playing recurring nightmare you are less likely to be playing enchantress effects.


Only one I can think of is Confusion in the Ranks


This is brilliant, and that alone is reason enough to unban it.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-11 8:26 pm 
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Regarding confusion in the ranks, note there's a ruling:

“The permanents are exchanged only if they’re both on the battlefield when the ability resolves.”

This is generally true for all exchanges (CR 701.10): if some part of the exchange can't happen then none of it happens. So you'd have to actually give your opponent Recurring Nightmare in this case, you can't also bounce it.

I don't think the ETB effects being referenced by the RC are enchantment ETB effects, but the ETB effects of whatever it is you're bringing back from the graveyard.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-11 11:06 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Wyvern
spacemonaut wrote:
Regarding confusion in the ranks, note there's a ruling:

“The permanents are exchanged only if they’re both on the battlefield when the ability resolves.”

This is generally true for all exchanges (CR 701.10): if some part of the exchange can't happen then none of it happens. So you'd have to actually give your opponent Recurring Nightmare in this case, you can't also bounce it.

I don't think the ETB effects being referenced by the RC are enchantment ETB effects, but the ETB effects of whatever it is you're bringing back from the graveyard.


Well for one, you couldn't use Recurring Nightmare's ability at instant speed any way, and two if you read through the conversation we were talking about cards that trigger off of enchantments entering the battlefield because that is a way around Recurring Nightmare's ability to dodge removal


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-11 11:18 pm 
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CowsCowsCows wrote:
spacemonaut wrote:
Regarding confusion in the ranks, note there's a ruling:

“The permanents are exchanged only if they’re both on the battlefield when the ability resolves.”

This is generally true for all exchanges (CR 701.10): if some part of the exchange can't happen then none of it happens. So you'd have to actually give your opponent Recurring Nightmare in this case, you can't also bounce it.

I don't think the ETB effects being referenced by the RC are enchantment ETB effects, but the ETB effects of whatever it is you're bringing back from the graveyard.


Well for one, you couldn't use Recurring Nightmare's ability at instant speed any way, and two if you read through the conversation we were talking about cards that trigger off of enchantments entering the battlefield because that is a way around Recurring Nightmare's ability to dodge removal

Thanks, you're right, now I recognise the context here. There's a lot to keep track of here, so I did read the conversation, but I must have lost track at some point. So the Confusion in the Ranks would be used to gain control of the opponent's Recurring Nightmare, not for you to gain control of other people's stuff by casting RN and bouncing it (which as you said you can't do). I see now.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-11 11:55 pm 
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CowsCowsCows wrote:
specter404 wrote:
I am struggling to think of any commonly played cards that have a trigger when an opponents' enchantment enters. Can anyone think of some?

There are plenty of your own but I'm assuming if you're playing recurring nightmare you are less likely to be playing enchantress effects.


Only one I can think of is Confusion in the Ranks


I would love to trade Confusion in the Ranks for Recurring Nightmare, I do not like chaos cards. Maybe because I have played against them too often.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-13 11:39 am 
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
If given the choice between a format with Sway and CV and a format without Expropriate and T&N, I'll choose the latter every time.


I agree with this, but the RC seems entrenched on the position that the format is not going to see a substantially longer banned list.

This is partly why I wrote that keeping these sorceries banned hurts the credibility of the banned list. At this point, I've lost track of the number of new players I've encountered who've read and understood the banned list, and said, "This doesn't make sense to me... These people don't know what they're talking about."

At some point, I've gotten tired of pretending "Exsanguinate is good, let's go to the next game," is somehow different from the banned sorceries that have the same net result.

Carthain wrote:
To Kemev and anyone else who would like these cards unbanned: Have you gone back to the announcements of when they were banned, and looked at the reasoning for it? (they often break down the reasoning behind banning card when they do so here.)


I have (and referenced the relevant threads in the original post).

The original argument for banning Coalition Victory and its ilk were that the ended the game immediately, with little/no regard for what happened earlier in the game. This is why I referenced how the number of playable sorceries has more than tripled since then -- back in 2007-2009, there weren't that many immediate win cards. Currently though, the format is stacked with immediate game enders. (I don't think this last statement is currently in dispute? Chime in otherwise.)

The current disagreement seems to hinge on whether someone thinks that the original banned sorceries end the game in a significantly different way than more recent cards. I don't think I makes a big difference any more; others disagree.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-13 12:30 pm 
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Kemev wrote:
At some point, I've gotten tired of pretending "Exsanguinate is good, let's go to the next game," is somehow different from the banned sorceries that have the same net result.

Again, spells like Exsanguinate don't HAVE to be game-enders, they just CAN be. If the ability to end a game immediately was the sole reason these were banned, then why weren't Fireball, Earthquake, Hurricane, Squall Line, Rolling Thunder, Insurrection, Tooth and Nail, and so on also banned? Quite simply, they have purposes other than immediately ending the game, and they are not enhanced by EDH rules. Coalition Victory and its ilk DON'T and ARE.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-13 1:03 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
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We really need to resolve this dissonance of Can versus Does. We're debating along different lines and trying to equate them.

To those advocating CV being unbanned and sighting other sorceries that end the game, Kemev being one of the most recent, are you saying that if a spell usually does something it should be equated to a spell that only does that thing when evaluating it?

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-13 1:04 pm 
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Kemev wrote:
This is partly why I wrote that keeping these sorceries banned hurts the credibility of the banned list. At this point, I've lost track of the number of new players I've encountered who've read and understood the banned list, and said, "This doesn't make sense to me... These people don't know what they're talking about."
Thing is, I have and have known people who've had similar opinions about the modern and legacy and even sometimes Standard banlists. "Really? This card is banned? What a bunch of crybabies." And then nine times out of ten I or the other person would actually play with/against the card, and their position would 180 because they now realize that that's why it was banned.

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I've gotten tired of pretending "Exsanguinate is good, let's go to the next game," is somehow different from the banned sorceries that have the same net result.
The bolded part I just don't buy, and I think I've expressed why repeatedly. It's true to say that "Exsanguinate for 40" ≈ Coalition Victory, but the comparison itself isn't valid because "Exsanguinate for 40" ≠ "Exsanguinate as a whole". Exsanguinate on its own does other things, like keep you alive an extra turn when facing down a goblin horde. Or power up Rakdos, Lord of Riots. Or trigger Well of Lost Dreams. Or deal damage that is severe but not quite lethal. All of the above examples are ways the card can not win the game on the spot but still have an effect and potentially make the game more interesting.

Coalition Victory and Sway are not like any of the aforementioned cards because they are uniquely one-dimensional. They have exactly 2 modes: make everything go kablam, or get answered and do nothing.
Kemev wrote:
Currently though, the format is stacked with immediate game enders. (I don't think this last statement is currently in dispute? Chime in otherwise.)

The current disagreement seems to hinge on whether someone thinks that the original banned sorceries end the game in a significantly different way than more recent cards.

Regarding the first part, I'm partially in agreement. Depending on how you define "immediate game enders" I think one of two things. Either the definition is broad enough that the statement is true but unremarkable or narrow enough to be interesting but false.

Regarding the second line, I do not think that is at all the point of disagreement. I care a little bit about how more recent cards end the game, but mostly it's the other 80%+ when they don't end the game that I care about. The unbanned cards either win the game, do other interesting stuff, or get answered. The banned ones either win the game, make it suck, or get answered.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-13 2:27 pm 
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specter404 wrote:
We really need to resolve this dissonance of Can versus Does. We're debating along different lines and trying to equate them.


Ok, fair.

specter404 wrote:
To those advocating CV being unbanned and sighting other sorceries that end the game, Kemev being one of the most recent, are you saying that if a spell usually does something it should be equated to a spell that only does that thing when evaluating it?


Yes, this is essentially what I'm saying: that we should look at these cards in a pragmatic way.

So Tooth and Nail has been mentioned a few times in this thread. Here are a few things I could do with it:
- Tutor for Ravenous Chupacabra and Nekrataal and put them into my hand
- Put down two Clones copying an Eternal Witness, recurring T&N and another card from my 'yard
- Entwine to put in two U/G Merfolk lords, 'cause U/G Merfolk is a pretty good deck right now
- Make any number of other incremental value plays, because the card's pretty flexible
- Blindly run one of my best cards into my opponents' untapped mana and hope for the best

But in a practical sense, that's not how I'm likely to use Tooth and Nail. Here is the practical list of thing I can do with it:
- Hold it until I think it has a high chance of resolving (ie, when my opponents have little/no mana/cards)
- Play it as a last resort, when all other hope is lost
- Entwine for two cards that win the game (any deck with two or more colors can set up an immediate infinite loop)

And I could set up similar examples with any other big sorcery win-con. Yeah, I could Nexus of Fate as an expensive, blue Explore... but I'm probably looking to take every turn for the rest of the game with it. Yeah, like Sid said, I could try for a defensive Exsanguinate... but I'm probably looking to hold it for the win. I could wait 7 turns to draw Approach of the Second Sun instead of grabbing it with Dig Through Time.

The line I'm arguing here is, what usually happens when a player resolves one of these big sorceries? In Kong's Tooth and Nail example, do people keep playing when someone T&Ns for Avenger+'Hoof with Anger in the graveyard? Or do they say gg and move on to the next game?

The original argument for banning Victory, Biorhythym, and Sway was that they worked badly with the structure of the format by circumventing the starting life total boost. If you look at how people are likely to play with any number of format-staple, big-mana cards, they're just not special anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-13 2:43 pm 
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Thing is, I have and have known people who've had similar opinions about the modern and legacy and even sometimes Standard banlists. "Really? This card is banned? What a bunch of crybabies." And then nine times out of ten I or the other person would actually play with/against the card, and their position would 180 because they now realize that that's why it was banned.


But sometimes they're right about the other banned lists.

I'm gonna run with Modern, since it's the other constructed format I'm most familiar with. Players asked for years for Jace, the Mind Sculptor the be unbanned. Now that it's playable again, it's ok... see a couple copies in UW control, but it's almost laughable to remember that this was supposed to be the best card in the format.

KCI in modern last year is another good example. There were a lot of people (whether big names or random internet schlubs) who noted last spring that it was going to be a problem, but WotC let it dominate competitive play for the next six months.

The mob, the hive mind, whatever you want to call the multitude of folks out there playing Magic... they're playing a lot of games. And when the masses start turning up feedback like, "This doesn't make sense," sometimes it's because it really doesn't make sense.

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