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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-May-15 12:50 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
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Viperion wrote:
I'm sure if they're a competitive group they know that already specter.

Maybe the wishes are too slow for people that are trying to set up the win turn 2?

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-May-16 3:30 am 
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specter404 wrote:
The fact that people in a competitive meta dont use them is interesting. I wonder why


My guess is that it's only Burning Wish that is interesting, and in a competitive playgroup nobody plays red.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-May-16 6:22 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Adding 2U to the cost of your spell isn't great... that would be why I would not run Cunning Wish in most decks. Maybe a storm deck? Once you hit infinite mana or whatever having access to your choice of 15 cards could be the game ender... but you wouldn't want to hide all your wincons in the SB like you could in a 60 card format.

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The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 8:59 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
I wonder why, especially for blue decks, why are they not using cunning wish? Perhaps you could ask your group what they think about it.

Most of the instants you would want to cast with Cunning Wish aren't worth paying +3 for i think.

Viperion wrote:
I'm sure if they're a competitive group they know that already specter.

Well probably, but i have been playing every week for 3 and a half years and everyone has heard by now how i used to play Glittering and Cunning in a 5c deck with my wishboard of 10 Charms, haha.

Sid the Chicken wrote:
Maybe the wishes are too slow for people that are trying to set up the win turn 2?

It's at least 40% that, but also the wishes are actually not that powerful.*
Demonic gets any card in your deck for 2 mana, and the wishes get a specific type of card from only about 10 or 15.
Now, demonic is an extreme example, as it's probably the best tutor, but still.

On the other hand, i am playing Flash Hulk variants and Worldly Tutor, while limited, gets my Hulk. But so does Vamp. With Living Wish and Hulk in my board, i have just a small small fraction of my deck that gets Hulk.

So mostly every card you could want is in the mainboard, i think. I waffle about Stony Silence all the time, my current meta isn't enough artifacts to worry about it right now, so *that* would be convenient for a Wishboard (if only fetching an enchantment cost less than 3 mana). But, on the other hand, if there were artifacts in my meta again, it would be main-baord worthy because i get Enlightened, Vamp, DT, Seal, and i guess Intuition counts.

Shabbaman wrote:
My guess is that it's only Burning Wish that is interesting, and in a competitive playgroup nobody plays red.

I think Burning and Living (mostly because of how tiered Tymna is with grindability) are the best ones, Cunning and Glittering seem okay-ish.
Yeah red is bad. At the moment we have a couple Food Chain decks with Prossh and NivmIzzet and that's all the red right now. We have a red stax deck sometimes too.

Inkeyes22 wrote:
Adding 2U to the cost of your spell isn't great... that would be why I would not run Cunning Wish in most decks. Maybe a storm deck? Once you hit infinite mana or whatever having access to your choice of 15 cards could be the game ender... but you wouldn't want to hide all your wincons in the SB like you could in a 60 card format.

Yea, you would want some in the main deck. A lot of cEDH decks with infinite mana though can also draw their deck or tutor the win as part of the process. Thrasios based decks and ChainVeil Teferi and Dramatic Scepter combos all can. Food Chain Tazri/NivMizzet also 'infinitely' tutor or draw cards.

--------

In cEDH i think the short answer is they are no good cause anything you want to tutor for belongs in your deck.

* Edit: in cEDH. Casual is probably way different.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 9:40 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Quote:
In cEDH i think the short answer is they are no good cause anything you want to tutor for belongs in your deck.

Also equally true IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-May-28 3:12 pm 
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Joined: 2014-Sep-30 6:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
If anything, I wish that they would errata them to their old function, so you could pull cards from exile. A lot of interesting combos would pop up.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 12:32 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I don't think interesting is the word, R&D use a self-exiling clause to manage the power-level of a lot of cards, messing with that seems dangerous.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-May-30 1:10 am 

Joined: 2019-Mar-15 1:06 pm
Age: Wyvern
I'm not in favor of Wishes because I think that the 100-card deck building style allows you to put more than enough cards into your deck that you don't need to go outside of your deck to find more. There are so many tutors available that let you pull cards out of your deck when you need them, so I don't see the rationalization behind the demand to get extra cards.

Exiling is a part of certain cards and mechanics and I think allowing Wish cards to grab exiled cards would also ruin the balance associated with spells that exile themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-May-30 1:26 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Speaking as a player who runs Kess, the last thing that deck needs is a way to get all of its shenanigans back from exile.

Ugh, combining the wishes with Thousand Year Storm or Bonus Round makes me want to crawl up in a hole and die.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-01 2:24 pm 
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Joined: 2014-Sep-30 6:38 am
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Oh, they would be broken. Hell, they would probably be banned in EDH. But it was an important part of those cards history and original function, and would be fun in 60 card. They are useless in EDH right now anyways, so it would at least they would go out blazing, not be forgotten.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-01 11:48 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
DarksteelElephant wrote:
But it was an important part of those cards history and original function

You do not want to go to "it was the original function of the card" -- it's a horrible argument, and leads to things like people suggesting you play without errata, or pre-6th edition rules where we once the stack started to resolve, it all resolved (no letting one item resolve and then adding another item on top of the stack.)

The game has progressed over the years, generally for the better (some people may argue that, and argue different points, but as a broad stroke, I believe it has grown into a better game than it was originally.) Suggesting that something should be how it used to be isn't something that needs revisiting.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-20 4:35 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
Carthain wrote:
DarksteelElephant wrote:
But it was an important part of those cards history and original function

You do not want to go to "it was the original function of the card" -- it's a horrible argument, and leads to things like people suggesting you play without errata, or pre-6th edition rules where we once the stack started to resolve, it all resolved (no letting one item resolve and then adding another item on top of the stack.)

Not that I care much about the subject anymore, but this seems like a slippery slope fallacy. Just because one single point could be used to support an unrelated stance, doesn't validate or invalidate either one. In any case, would you mind picking apart the following: "it is the currently intended function of the card"?

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-20 11:49 pm 
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MMLgamer wrote:
In any case, would you mind picking apart the following: "it is the currently intended function of the card"?

Sure, why not? :) Now, I did originally phrase it as a slippery-slope, but thinking about it harder, that's more of an extreme kind of thing -- but "as intended" isn't exactly black and white.


The problem with "That's how the card was intended" is that it is usually hard to determine what the actual intent was. Wishes are a bit easier, assuming the original intent is how the game existed and that the template is accurate to the design intent (take a look at hybrid -- it acts in the game different than Rosewater intended -- so even in standard magic, it doesn't work exactly "as intended.")

The problem is, we have had the game change since then. What we have is a grey zone on how they are supposed to work. Sure, StP would "Remove from game" a creature, and Living Wish could get a creature from outside the game -- so that should have worked (and did back then IIRC.)

Then they created the Exile zone and changed anything that "removed from the game" to exile it instead. Soo, should Living Wish work on things in the exile zone? If we stop thinking about it now, then sure that's fairly easy to agree on.

But as we continue to look at design things, with the Exile zone it is mostly intended as a zone to put things that you can't get back. Rosewater has said that he doesn't like the Eldrazi Processors, as it returns things from Exile (using Exile as a temp zone for blinking, or white's "caging" effects are fine, and anything that can get itself back is fine, but getting back other things... isn't what the exile zone was intended for.) So if we allow wishes to get things back from exile, then... aren't we no longer using Exile "as intended" ?

And any cards created since the Exile zone was created have the same thing. If you get something back from there that was intended to be permanently removed for the duration of the game, aren't you no longer using that card "as intended"?

So how should we have it work out? In this case, the best thing is probably to follow WoTC's lead. They're the ones who know the intent of the zones, and of the cards -- and if Wishes were intended to get things from Exile, then they would have had their oracle wording updated to include that by now. As it hasn't, it's a pretty good clue that they aren't actually intended to get things from exile, but from somewhere that was never part of the game in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-21 12:54 am 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
I guess I asked for it when I used the word "intended", but still...

What you say might make sense if it were just about the old wishes, but now we also have Coax from the Blind Eternities, Mastermind's Acquisition, and Karn, the Great Creator which were printed after the rule change. How could it possibly be unintended in those cases? Bear in mind that I didn't just say "intended" in my last post, but more precisely, "currently intended".

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-21 1:42 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Don't those cards prove what I was just saying?

Coax & Karn specifically say "or from exile" while Mastermind's Acquisition doesn't. They show that WoTC has a template for grabbing from outside the game or exile -- but they haven't updated the original wishes (or Mastermind's Acquisition) to include the exile zone.

If it was currently intended for the original Wishes to let you get something from Exile -- then the oracle wording would be updated to say so. So no, I don't think it's even currently intended that they should do so.


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