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 Post subject: Re: Overrated Cards in EDH
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-14 12:59 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-14 4:04 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Boston, MA
If it's a 3-mana 2/2 it's a little ogre-qualified.

sorry

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 Post subject: Re: Overrated Cards in EDH
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-14 1:25 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Ouch (Both Coco & Shabbaman) :facepalm:


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 Post subject: Re: Overrated Cards in EDH
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-14 4:28 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
CowsCowsCows wrote:
I'm glad people are using this thread and a lot of interesting ideas have been brought up. I thought of another card that I think fits this category: Dragonmaster Outcast

The design of this card is definitely awesome and I've put it in many, many decks over the years. But lately I've come to realize that it's not nearly as good of a card as I've given it credit for. First off, it's a dead card for the first six turns of the game, maybe a little less if you have some land ramp in your deck. Second, when it does eventually come down, it does nothing until your next upkeep, and is extremely vulnerable until then. With one toughness, it dies to a light breeze, and with one power it barely qualifies as a chump blocker. It becomes an immediate target for removal, and I have played very few games where it sticks around long enough to even get a single dragon out of it. Even if it miraculously survives a complete turn cycle and you get that first dragon, the card's extremely vulnerability means it will likely be killed before it can generate a meaningful amount of value.


I'm not going to defend Dragonmaster Outcast as an overrated card - it possibly is just that. But I think it is at least more accurate to call it an misused card more than anything else.

First off, it's not a generic "good stuff" card you just jam into any deck for value, but at the same time I personally don't know of anyone who believes it is that or presents it as such, which is why I'm a little iffy on the "overused" label here, but that's getting into semantics.

I think Dragonmaster Outcast is an exceptionally good card, you just have to know what decks it belongs in and when to play it.

First off, you absolutely do want it in decks with a good amount of ramp - and it needs to be land ramp. Mana rocks don't do squat here. So essentially, you're never playing this outside of R/G or R/G/x decks.

Second, you need SOME synergy-based reason for it. If you have any kind of dragon them, that's enough. If you have a broader token theme, that's fine too. If you just want things to trigger Elemental Bond-esque effects that draw cards off large creatures ETBFing, cool. Point is, you have to ask if the card enables, supports or synergizes with other things in your deck. If it does, it should be a GREAT card for the deck.

But the other part of the equation is when to play it. Think of it like this: if you play it and a board wipe sweeps it away, it's arguable BETTER than most other creatures because you only paid 1 mana for it and almost any other creature would be just as dead regardless.

If people are using SPOT removal on it, that's actually fine too! Because DMO is not a 1-drop. Sure I might run it out T1 if I have a Skullclamp ready for T2 but w/e. No, the correct way to play DMO is almost as a "Kicker" or a value-added card tacked on to something else, ideally a significant threat.

How many times do you tap 6 mana to play a threat, leaving 1 or 2 mana open because you just didn't have anything BIGGER to play? For me, at least, that is a very common occurrence. I like to be "mana efficient" meaning, if I don't have any instants to hold up (and no reason to bluff) I want to use ALL my mana each turn.

Without some 1 and 2 drops to patch holes, it is almost impossible to build and EDH deck where you always play a 5-drop on turn 5 and a 6-drop on turn 6, etc. The sheer number of times I've played a 5-drop the same turn I hit 6 mana is astounding.

So, DMO is a card you just cast T5 or T6 or T7 along with something else to be mana efficient and hopefully give your opponent a tough choice as to where to point their spot removal.

If they choose the other thing, then your DMO lives to give you value. If they choose the DMO then it was a 1-drop that saved your 5 or 6 drop from removal! Either way, that's actually pretty good for you.

Now again, if someone just Damnations, well, that sucks but any other creature you could have played there would be dead too, barring of course a few Keywords like Indestructible.

In short, just because something dies so incredibly often doesn't mean it's a bad card - it means it's too scary to allow to live. The group sees it as a MUST ANSWER NOW threat. There are absolutely times when you don't WANT to play a must answer now threat, sure, but knowing when to play them is key.

Consecrated Sphinx is a card that bites it immediately 9 times out of 10 as well, and no one says it's overrated. Not saying DMO is on the same level, but they're both cards that, if left on the board for very long will likely win you the game.

Of course, all of this being said, if you just play against a bunch of decks that all run a critical mass of board wipes and shit gets Wrath'ed away turn after turn, then yeah he's not going to do well. Meta is always a factor.

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 Post subject: Re: Overrated Cards in EDH
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-14 5:24 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Drake
Quote:
Consecrated Sphinx is a card that bites it immediately 9 times out of 10 as well, and no one says it's overrated. Not saying DMO is on the same level, but they're both cards that, if left on the board for very long will likely win you the game.


Well if Consecrated Sphinx makes it to your next turn in a typical four player game at the very LEAST you’ve drawn 8 cards. If Dragonmaster Outcast makes it that long, you get... a 5/5 dragon. Consecrated Sphinx isn’t called overrated because even when it sticks around for a short time it generates almost immediate value. Not to mention it’s a decently costed 4/6 on a flier. The Sphinx will quickly get out of hand if left unchecked, but DragonMaster Outcast would need to stay on board a long, long time to “win you the game” on it’s own. Combine that with it’s pathetic 1/1 stats and it’s s recipe for disaster. It’s just not nearly as good as it looks in my opinion. Not saying it’s a bad card (as I explained when I made this thread) but just that it often underperforms despite being rated so highly.


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 Post subject: Re: Overrated Cards in EDH
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-17 7:40 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jun-12 8:43 pm
Age: Hatchling
I'm glad to hear Spellbooks are overrated... I shoved one of them in my deck every time since I began playing - which wasn't long ago - and found it systematically useless... Great to hear that I'm just not a stupid newbie who doesn't understand the game, but that the damn thing is actually useless :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Overrated Cards in EDH
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-23 8:59 am 
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Joined: 2018-Aug-19 4:17 pm
Age: Wyvern
I’ve heard people say Oracle of Mul Daya is pretty overrated. They think that the amount of information that’s given up by the Oracle isn’t worth the ramp it provides. I personally think that’s crazy but I only play Oracle in my mono green Yeva, Nature’s Herald deck where it works pretty well. Has anybody else had a bad experience with Oracle?


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 Post subject: Re: Overrated Cards in EDH
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-30 8:55 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Ranger_762 wrote:
I'm glad to hear Spellbooks are overrated... I shoved one of them in my deck every time since I began playing - which wasn't long ago - and found it systematically useless... Great to hear that I'm just not a stupid newbie who doesn't understand the game, but that the damn thing is actually useless :lol:

"Useless" and "not good in every deck" are not the same thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Overrated Cards in EDH
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-30 9:07 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Ranger_762 wrote:
I'm glad to hear Spellbooks are overrated... I shoved one of them in my deck every time since I began playing - which wasn't long ago - and found it systematically useless... Great to hear that I'm just not a stupid newbie who doesn't understand the game, but that the damn thing is actually useless :lol:

"Useless" and "not good in every deck" are not the same thing.


For Spellbook in particular, I’d argue that there is no deck that needs that effect so badly that it can’t wait for Library of Leng or Thought Vessel. However, the effect “You have no maximum hand size” certainly is useful in some decks. Most decks won’t need it often enough to spend a card on, though.

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I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Overrated Cards in EDH
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-30 12:24 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Ranger_762 wrote:
I'm glad to hear Spellbooks are overrated... I shoved one of them in my deck every time since I began playing - which wasn't long ago - and found it systematically useless... Great to hear that I'm just not a stupid newbie who doesn't understand the game, but that the damn thing is actually useless :lol:

"Useless" and "not good in every deck" are not the same thing.


For Spellbook in particular, I’d argue that there is no deck that needs that effect so badly that it can’t wait for Library of Leng or Thought Vessel. However, the effect “You have no maximum hand size” certainly is useful in some decks. Most decks won’t need it often enough to spend a card on, though.

I agree, but I think he's referring to "Spellbooks" in the general sense - as in any card that gives no max hand size - since no one actually mentioned Spellbook as an overrated card.

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 Post subject: Re: Overrated Cards in EDH
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-30 1:44 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
That’s fair. I guess I hadn’t retained the context back to U_Ks initial post on them.

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Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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