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 Post subject: Cards that copy creatures and remove the legendary supertype
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-01 11:24 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Wizards has printed two cards that can copy a creature and remove the legendary supertype from the copy in the last 18 months: Spark Double and Helm of the Host. Outside the obvious Godo, Bandit Warlord combo, I’m wondering two things:

1) What are your best uses for this effect?

I feel that Helm of the Host and Spark Double/Rite of Replication are pretty much an auto-include in any deck that relies on triggered abilities whose triggers are a) Free b) Not “when/whenever this creature” triggers c) not limited in effect to that creature and d) In CI in the case of Double/RoR. If the commanders are in green or white and care enough about tokens to include Parallel Lives and Co. this is even better.

Examples of commanders that would want this effect include:
Naban, Dean of Iteration
Yarok, the Desecrated
Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons
Omnath, Locus of Rage
Reaper King
Vial Smasher the Fierce

The list is very long however, and probably includes the vast majority of the popular “synergy” commanders.

2) Do you feel that this design space is dangerous?

It seems like the ability to break the one card restriction both in deckbuilding and in the legendary rule, could have significant adverse effects if it becomes widespread enough.

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I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Cards that copy creatures and remove the legendary supertype
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-01 11:55 am 

Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Do you feel that this design space is dangerous?

It seems like the ability to break the one card restriction both in deckbuilding and in the legendary rule, could have significant adverse effects if it becomes widespread enough.


Mirror Gallery's been around since the format started, and as far as I know hasn't broken anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Cards that copy creatures and remove the legendary supertype
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-01 12:37 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Kemev wrote:
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Do you feel that this design space is dangerous?

It seems like the ability to break the one card restriction both in deckbuilding and in the legendary rule, could have significant adverse effects if it becomes widespread enough.


Mirror Gallery's been around since the format started, and as far as I know hasn't broken anything.


I’d forgotten about that one. It’s a symmetrical do-nothing card on its own though. Spark Double and Helm aren’t symmetrical and provide the copies themselves. I’m not arguing that either is banworthy, just that the effect could be problematic if it becomes too common.

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Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Cards that copy creatures and remove the legendary supertype
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-03 11:10 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
brothers Yamazaki. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Cards that copy creatures and remove the legendary supertype
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-12 12:25 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Do you feel that this design space is dangerous?

No, not really.

Spectrar Ghost wrote:
What are your best uses for this effect?

Brudiclad + Helm of the Host + legend of choice = OMFG.

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 Post subject: Re: Cards that copy creatures and remove the legendary supertype
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-13 8:20 am 

Joined: 2012-Oct-24 8:05 pm
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Brudiclad + Helm of the Host + legend of choice = OMFG.

Who needs another legend? Just make all your tokens into Brudiclad.


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 Post subject: Re: Cards that copy creatures and remove the legendary supertype
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-14 3:39 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
What are your best uses for this effect?
My favorite use is creatures that have two abilities that feed into each other:
Niv Mizzet, the Firemind
Niv Mizzet, Parun
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Ezuri, Claw of Progress
Nekusar, the Mindrazer (gross)
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Toothy, Imaginary Friend / Pir, Imaginative Rascal
Zndrsplt, Eye of Wisdom / Okaun, Eye of Chaos (I think Zndrsplt is usually the better target for this effect unless you're feeling stompy)
Ramos, Dragon Engine
Roalesk, Apex Hybrid (although often I'm very happy to just have a plain old legendary copy which dies immediately)
Tishana, Voice of Thunder

There are also 'lords' that play nicely with extra copies of themselves:
(the already mentioned Reaper King and Naban)
Ojutai, Soul of Winter
Silumgar, the Drifting Death
The Ur-Dragon
Najeela, the Blade-Blossom
Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
Morophon, the Boundless
Admiral Becket Brass
Sliver Legion (gets some very big numbers on p/t which tickles my inner Timmy, though my inner Spike keeps reminding me how unnecessary more than one Sliver Legion is)
Naru Meha, Master Wizard / Adeliz, the Cinder Wind
Marchesa, the Black Rose (treating her as a "+1/+1 counter lord" - multiple instances of Dethrone do stack)
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Kemev wrote:
Mirror Gallery's been around since the format started, and as far as I know hasn't broken anything.
I’d forgotten about that one. It’s a symmetrical do-nothing card on its own though. Spark Double and Helm aren’t symmetrical and provide the copies themselves.
I guess a better comparison then would be Sakashima the Impostor which has been around equally long and is nowhere near a format staple.
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
I’m not arguing that either is banworthy, just that the effect could be problematic if it becomes too common.
I agree with that but I'm not worried that it will happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Cards that copy creatures and remove the legendary supertype
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-14 4:06 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sakashima changes the name of the permanent and stays legendary, so it’s not going to get away with more than one extra copy - you can’t Rite of Replication it or similar.

I saw a Yarok deck play Risen Reef then Master of Waves with 3 devotion Thursday. There’s a reasonable argument that two (or seven) Yaroks wouldn’t have made the interaction that much more unfair, in the Magic sense of the word.

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Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Cards that copy creatures and remove the legendary supertype
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-14 5:32 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Sakashima changes the name of the permanent and stays legendary, so it’s not going to get away with more than one extra copy - you can’t Rite of Replication it or similar.
That's true but I think it's still a relevant example, demonstrating that being able to get a second copy of your Commander has been possible for a very long time without issue. And in the case of something like Roalesk or Reaper King, it doesn't even matter too much whether you keep all the Sakashimas or just one of them, if you resolve kicked Rite you are probably going to win.


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 Post subject: Re: Cards that copy creatures and remove the legendary supertype
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-15 12:10 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
NMS wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Brudiclad + Helm of the Host + legend of choice = OMFG.

Who needs another legend? Just make all your tokens into Brudiclad.

I mean, yeah, you can, but other legends are generally better. For example, my Brudiclad deck includes Krenko, Mob Boss. That gets stupid MUCH faster.

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 Post subject: Re: Cards that copy creatures and remove the legendary supertype
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-15 4:39 am 

Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
intreped wrote:
I guess a better comparison then would be Sakashima the Impostor which has been around equally long and is nowhere near a format staple.


It'd see more play if it weren't a $35 card (which is pretty hard to justify buying when Clever Impersonator is $2, and Clone is 20 cents).

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 Post subject: Re: Cards that copy creatures and remove the legendary supertype
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-15 2:06 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Wizards has printed two cards that can copy a creature and remove the legendary supertype from the copy in the last 18 months: Spark Double and Helm of the Host. Outside the obvious Godo, Bandit Warlord combo, I’m wondering two things:

1) What are your best uses for this effect?


Copying planeswalkers seems pretty dope. If you can't answer one, you probably can't answer many. A pair of planeswalkers with cumulative effects could run away with a game, but, I don't think it's all that bad. I have trouble thinking of broken applications in general (copy Vilis, Broker of Blood for double the card draw out of life loss, I guess?)

Quote:
2) Do you feel that this design space is dangerous?

I don't think so, the way it's currently being used. Previously, Legendary creatures were theme inclusions with some mechanical consideration; creatures we might expect to appear in the storyline, etc. Legendary might be used to curtail some designs that would be problematic if you could cheaply play several copies, but those are few and far between. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben comes to mind; at 1W non-legendary, she'd be broken. But, I think if you have to pay 4 cmc (Spark Double being the most efficient of these effects), it's probably not so broken (not unlike Lodestone Golem outside of vintage).

The way the design space is being used, outside planeswalkers, they don't tend to be cumulatively dangerous; If you have two Kethis, The Hidden Hand, you're not getting much more out of his copy. Same with Muldrotha, the Gravetide. There are some that are cumulative and good, like Yarok, the Desecrated. Obviously some of the answers above also show cards that are great in multiples, but, it's not clear to me it's worth the effort.

More than anything, I think the designers are aware of how they have used the Legendary supertype to power up some designs while preventing them from being problematic in a four-of sort of way. I would not expect many iterations of designs that circumvent the Legendary rule in the future, and I strongly doubt any will ever cost less than 4 CMC.

I doubt you will ever see an effect that lets you just generate copies of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben without a significant cost.

Kemev wrote:
intreped wrote:
I guess a better comparison then would be Sakashima the Impostor which has been around equally long and is nowhere near a format staple.


It'd see more play if it weren't a $35 card (which is pretty hard to justify buying when Clever Impersonator is $2, and Clone is 20 cents).

Sakashima saw little enough play when she was bulk. Of the people I know, I'm the only one who ever played her as a general.

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 Post subject: Re: Cards that copy creatures and remove the legendary supertype
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-08 3:22 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-23 4:45 am
Age: Hatchling
I run Helm of the Host in my Trostani deck, as the deck has a theme of populating token copies of creatures. Getting the Helm onto Trostani, so that I can then populate non-legendary token Trostanii - things get silly quite quickly.

People love to say that lifegain is useless, but gaining well over a thousand life certainly makes it a slightly more challenging task for certain decks to take you out so easily.


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