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 Post subject: Re: So silly question about old bans...
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-01 2:29 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Library of Alexandria also isn't banned for balance issues, not really. It's pretty close to being the tenth Power piece, and it would be legal in effectively just EDH. This would serve to only further shoot up its already unreasonably high price tag, and since it fits reasonably well into pretty much every deck in the format it would increase the difference between the haves and have-nots astronomically.

If it was like Sol Ring, a $5-10 card that gets reprinted every year or so, it wouldn't have ever gotten banned in the first place. Unfortunately, it's a card that is worth the same as some cars and was only printed in one very old set, meaning most players will never have one. And while I'm not entirely convinced that the existence of Library in the format would actually contribute to a "pay to win" environment, it certainly would feel like it to many.


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 Post subject: Re: So silly question about old bans...
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-01 5:17 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Library of Alexandria also isn't banned for balance issues, not really. It's pretty close to being the tenth Power piece, and it would be legal in effectively just EDH. This would serve to only further shoot up its already unreasonably high price tag, and since it fits reasonably well into pretty much every deck in the format it would increase the difference between the haves and have-nots astronomically.

If it was like Sol Ring, a $5-10 card that gets reprinted every year or so, it wouldn't have ever gotten banned in the first place. Unfortunately, it's a card that is worth the same as some cars and was only printed in one very old set, meaning most players will never have one. And while I'm not entirely convinced that the existence of Library in the format would actually contribute to a "pay to win" environment, it certainly would feel like it to many.

What kind of cars are you buying? o.0

But you are mostly right. cEDH would likely feel the strain the most to own one, and at first everyone would run it or want to, but I think after the dust settled people would realize it just isn't that ubiquitous anymore. Hell, I remember not that long ago when most decks ran Reliquary Tower and Mystifying Maze.


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 Post subject: Re: So silly question about old bans...
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-01 9:56 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Library of Alexandria also isn't banned for balance issues, not really. It's pretty close to being the tenth Power piece, and it would be legal in effectively just EDH. This would serve to only further shoot up its already unreasonably high price tag, and since it fits reasonably well into pretty much every deck in the format it would increase the difference between the haves and have-nots astronomically.

I would agree, if the speed of the format hadn't increased, and control decks ruled the roost. They don't, not even close. I've trimmed down the decks I've built to around 15, and of those, Library would only fit into one of them, and even then, there are better lands. Saying it goes into every deck is now no longer the case. Aggressive decks, voltron decks, and combo decks don't hold on to seven cards in their hand- it jeopardizes their speed. And if we're going by price, there are more expensive cards in the format than Library. And an actual piece of Power is legal in EDH, so that's not a valid argument either.


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 Post subject: Re: So silly question about old bans...
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-02 12:20 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Marit Lage wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Library of Alexandria also isn't banned for balance issues, not really. It's pretty close to being the tenth Power piece, and it would be legal in effectively just EDH. This would serve to only further shoot up its already unreasonably high price tag, and since it fits reasonably well into pretty much every deck in the format it would increase the difference between the haves and have-nots astronomically.

I would agree, if the speed of the format hadn't increased, and control decks ruled the roost. They don't, not even close. I've trimmed down the decks I've built to around 15, and of those, Library would only fit into one of them, and even then, there are better lands. Saying it goes into every deck is now no longer the case. Aggressive decks, voltron decks, and combo decks don't hold on to seven cards in their hand- it jeopardizes their speed. And if we're going by price, there are more expensive cards in the format than Library.

See, I've found the opposite tendency. Working on the 32 deck challenge, the (anecdotal, mostly from memory) evidence I've seen is that it's the control decks I build that tend to have the best win percentages. And even in the more aggressive decks I build, there's still a heaping heap of card draw, the difference being the draw spells tend to be bigger ones like Garruk, Primal Hunter or God-Eternal Bontu. And it really only takes one to get your hand pretty solidly set around 7.

Not to mention that a lot of more aggressive decks have niche CA engines that they use. Aura voltron decks use the various enchantresses, equipment decks tend to run Sram and Puresteel Paladin, etc.

Quote:
And an actual piece of Power is legal in EDH, so that's not a valid argument either.

Sure, but there is a rather enormous difference: Library is made better by the rules of EDH, while Timetwister is made worse. Library is benefited by a slower format that isn't particularly worried about color fixing, known for its powerful utility land support, and where Strip Mine and friends don't make up a fourth of everyone's mana base. Timetwister on the other hand is a massive card disadvantage spell in a multiplayer format, and many of the decks that would want an effect like it would be turned off by the fact that it is effectively self-graveyard hate.


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 Post subject: Re: So silly question about old bans...
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-02 2:20 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
You make solid arguements, though I disagree because of what I've seen over the years (anecdotal evidence for everyone!). It's kinda funny though if you think about it. Despite it being the same format, we've had wildly different experiences and metagames, even across years of play (I started playing EDH in 2006ish). You can't say that about any other format.


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 Post subject: Re: So silly question about old bans...
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-02 3:39 pm 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
What’s odd about the ban list are the cards that are so powerful or widely used that feel like they outta be banned because they effect the game harshly when played. Talking about your consecrated spinx, Purphoros, God of the Forge, emrakul/mindslaver, or name a card that helps you win games easily or easier.

When Purphoros, God of the Forge is removed from my Jund deck I feel vary weak because of it and maybe the answer people outta run more are cards that help remove things from libraries. Just seems like those almost bannable cards seem comparable to cards in the ban list. Things that are just the south side of broken but nearly the same. The simple example of this would be seedborn muse and prophet of kiuphix. Obviously one has flash and the other does not, but the better ability is the amount of extra turns you get due to being able to untap every untap step. Flash isn’t hard to get and it pushes it over the top.

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 Post subject: Re: So silly question about old bans...
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-03 12:54 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
Prophet gives ALL of your creatures flash in addition to having Seedborn Muse's static ability. There's a pretty big gap between the two cards, as Prophet gives you a lot more options for using the mana you now have access to every turn.

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 Post subject: Re: So silly question about old bans...
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-04 11:30 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Marit Lage wrote:
Looking at the list, the RC could probably remove Library of Alexandria, Falling Star, and Chaos Orb. When Library was on there, there were a lot fewer good utility lands, and fewer good ways to remove them. The format was a lot more of a grind, with the incremental advantage being game breaking. Now? I honestly don't see the problem. And while Falling Star and Chaos Orb were banned to keep things balanced in a tournament setting, the list isn't supposed to cater to anything resembling balance, so I think they should both come out of the box as well.


Falling Star and Chaos Orb were banned because they are dexterity cards, not for balance issues. They’re effectively un-cards, rewarding skills outside the normal magic skill set.


These two cards are banned for this reason in vintage. They aren't banned on the Commander banned list page. They are banned through the rule that Commander uses the vintage banned list. That makes them unique.

In theory, WOTC could restrict them in vintage, and they'd be legal in Commander without the RC doing anything. In practice, WOTC won't want them on MTGO even if the manual dexterity thing was outweighed by the increasing popularity of Old School.

These cards are still interesting in that they can't be unbanned by simply removing them from the list. The entire rules structure would have to be updated to allow them. Or, if you are an Old School player and have a chaos orb, just port your rules for it via house rules and have fun.


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 Post subject: Re: So silly question about old bans...
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-04 11:37 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Library of Alexandria also isn't banned for balance issues, not really. It's pretty close to being the tenth Power piece, and it would be legal in effectively just EDH. This would serve to only further shoot up its already unreasonably high price tag, and since it fits reasonably well into pretty much every deck in the format it would increase the difference between the haves and have-nots astronomically.

If it was like Sol Ring, a $5-10 card that gets reprinted every year or so, it wouldn't have ever gotten banned in the first place. Unfortunately, it's a card that is worth the same as some cars and was only printed in one very old set, meaning most players will never have one. And while I'm not entirely convinced that the existence of Library in the format would actually contribute to a "pay to win" environment, it certainly would feel like it to many.


LoA is played in vintage, cube, and Old School. These types of posts are not helpful. Its price is reasonable. Juzam Djinn is the most expensive card in that set now, and its price is reasonable.

It is banned because way back in the day it served as messaging. Anyone that has it now and also wants to use it can among friends. There is no reason now to unban it now and piss off unreasonable people.


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 Post subject: Re: So silly question about old bans...
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-04 11:51 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Dee123 wrote:
LoA is played in vintage, cube, and Old School. ...Its price is reasonable.
Dear lord it's price is not reasonable. It's inflated drastically because of it's rarity, that it is on the reserve list, and there are some collectors out there who buy copies and don't put them back into the market to be played with by those who want to do so.


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 Post subject: Re: So silly question about old bans...
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-05 12:08 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
Carthain wrote:
Dee123 wrote:
LoA is played in vintage, cube, and Old School. ...Its price is reasonable.
Dear lord it's price is not reasonable. It's inflated drastically because of it's rarity, that it is on the reserve list, and there are some collectors out there who buy copies and don't put them back into the market to be played with by those who want to do so.


No. It is a piece of history. Owning history makes lots of things expensive. Old baseball cards are just cardboard like old Magic cards are. Why are they worth so much more? People care more about that history. A T-Rex skull is crazy expensive and impractical to own. Why is it so expensive? History.

You just straight up quoted me telling you who plays it. Yes, some copies are in thick glass to be maintained in NM condition forever, but many are played in vintage, cube, and Old School. This boogy man of 'collectors' is what lazy people say to make themselves feel better about being jealous of others. That crap is all over the Internet. What is also on the Internet is plenty of people who actually buy this stuff telling you why. Just read it, even if you will never be one of those people, and you'll see why it is reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: So silly question about old bans...
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-05 12:43 am 
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Dee123 wrote:
No. It is a piece of history. Owning history makes lots of things expensive.
Yes, but the factors that I listed increase the price beyond what is a 'reasonable' price for that card & effect. And then you go on to claim about how 'history' is more expensive .. that is an influence in price sure -- but that doesn't make it "reasonable."

Dee123 wrote:
You just straight up quoted me telling you who plays it.
Which doesn't detract from what I said at all. You listed groups of people, you never said those groups are increasing in size (which would account for an increase in price -- increase in demand). I'm saying there is a decrease in supply to which you just call it a "buggy man" ("bogeyman" is the term you're looking for btw.)

Dee123 wrote:
This buggy man of 'collectors' is what lazy people say to make themselves feel better about being jealous of others. That crap is all over the Internet.

Sure... but not at 'reasonable' prices. I had a library when it was around $300. In the resulting years it's increased in price 4x. Are you honestly saying that there's 4x as many people who need copies for Vintage/Cube/Old School ? Many vintage tournaments allow proxies (from what I've seen in N/A .. I heard they were stricter about using legit copies out in Europe area). Even if we say "history" and "age" allow for 2x the price increase, you still need to be able to say there's 2x the players of these formats... and Vintage seems to be dwindling from what I've seen. Toronto used to have a very healthy Vintage population .. that's mostly disappeared over the years; There's still some pockets of people who get together to play it, but again, they allow for proxies. So you probably need more than just 2x growth to account for the 4x price increase.

Really it hinges on what you consider "reasonable" -- and to call it reasonable without being willing to understand someone else's point of what is and isn't reasonable is kind of shortsighted.


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 Post subject: Re: So silly question about old bans...
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-05 12:55 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Dee123 wrote:
Juzam Djinn is the most expensive card in that set now, and its price is reasonable.

If Juzam Djinn was playable/good in virtually every deck ever made, you might have a point. But as it's a card that could be (and functionally has been) reprinted as a 25-cent uncommon, it's not even remotely comparable to Library.


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 Post subject: Re: So silly question about old bans...
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-05 1:17 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Dee123 wrote:
Carthain wrote:
Dee123 wrote:
LoA is played in vintage, cube, and Old School. ...Its price is reasonable.
Dear lord it's price is not reasonable. It's inflated drastically because of it's rarity, that it is on the reserve list, and there are some collectors out there who buy copies and don't put them back into the market to be played with by those who want to do so.


No. It is a piece of history. Owning history makes lots of things expensive. Old baseball cards are just cardboard like old Magic cards are. Why are they worth so much more? People care more about that history. A T-Rex skull is crazy expensive and impractical to own. Why is it so expensive? History. [...]


Its price is reasonable in that we can reason why it's there.

But that's the only sense of “reasonable” in which we might say the price is reasonable.

Its price is unreasonable in that we would not expect anyone ever to feel they have to pay for it.

The general idea is that if it's in the format, everyone who owns one would use it in their Commander decks, so players would feel they have to have it to compete in Commander, and that's unreasonable—and thus the perceived barrier to entry.

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 Post subject: Re: So silly question about old bans...
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-05 1:34 am 
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spacemonaut wrote:
The general idea is that if it's in the format, everyone who owns one would use it in their Commander decks, so players would feel they have to have it to compete in Commander, and that's unreasonable—and thus the perceived barrier to entry.

And that's before considering that the sudden increase in demand would drive the price up even higher were it suddenly legal in Commander.


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