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 Post subject: Can Commander have a Happily Ever After?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-19 3:47 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Figure I'd start this as I can see it being a card that people may come to talk about for the format. So here's the card for reference:

Image

Now, it's similar to Coalition Victory which is banned -- but is it similar enough to also be banned?

Really the question is, is it different enough?
  • It does require 5 colours of permanents -- which is similar to CV, although more permissive. CV requires it in creatures, while HEA requires it only in permanents. Although in both cases, your commander may be what satisfies this requirement - and it's something that is assuredly available (assuming enough mana to cast it.)
  • CV requires one of each basic land type, while HEA requires 6 or more card types. As it's 6 of 8 -- it's not a huge change to a deck to have enough types. Plus, this one checks permanents and cards in your graveyard. So it's a bit easier to accomplish (a Terminate won't ruin your attempt at winning with the card.)
  • HEA has a drawback in that it gives your opponents life and a card. Not insignificant. Would anyone run a card that is 2W: Each player draws a card and gains 5 life? I'm not sure that would see much play even on an instant. So I don't think it'll be played for value and then 'accidentally' winning off of it. I feel if someone is going to win from this, they are intentionally trying to do so.
  • HEA is not a card that needs to be answered right away or else everyone else loses - there's the delay until the controllers next upkeep -- which I think is what's kept Felidar Sovereign nice and legal. Easy to destroy & you generally see it coming.
  • HEA isn't a creature, so it's harder to prevent than Felidar Sovereign - but it is a permanent, so it's easier to deal with than Coalition Victory.
  • HEA references your starting life total instead of a fixed number -- so we don't have any situation where people are claiming it's easier to use in Commander (where some people do object to Serra Ascendant for that reason.

Overall, I don't see this becoming an problem. While some aspects are easier to achieve than what's required with Coalition Victory - on the whole, it's a card that is easier to interact with and that part makes it much less of a problem card and something that would need to be banned.

So yes, I do think Commander can have a Happly Ever After.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Commander have a Happily Ever After?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-19 8:05 am 
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Carthain wrote:
HEA is not a card that needs to be answered right away or else everyone else loses - there's the delay until the controllers next upkeep -- which I think is what's kept Felidar Sovereign nice and legal. Easy to destroy & you generally see it coming.

I mean, Alchemist's Refuge and company are still a thing... but generally I agree with your assessment. Still a card I'm hoping not to see often/ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Commander have a Happily Ever After?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-19 8:10 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-14 4:04 pm
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Location: Boston, MA
I feel like its more interactive than Approach of the Second Sun, so I think it won't be a problem, at least in the groups I play in. Most of the games I see ended by alternate wins are basically over anyways, and the cards are only in the deck to save the control player the embarrassment of beating everyone down with their 1/1 general or whatever.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Commander have a Happily Ever After?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-19 8:29 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I mean, Alchemist's Refuge and company are still a thing... but generally I agree with your assessment. Still a card I'm hoping not to see often/ever.

Yeah, but as you add in more cards, the more of a "combo" card it becomes... which makes it even more fair as you're using more cards to get it to work. Commander in general seems to be okay with combos when you need to keep adding in more cards in order to get it to work :)


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 Post subject: Re: Can Commander have a Happily Ever After?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-19 11:13 am 

Joined: 2011-Apr-15 12:02 pm
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I'm pretty excited about having a coalition victory lite I can play, honestly. And I'd prefer seeing it over craterhoof. \o/

(I also really like the design that makes your opponents sliiiightly more likely to draw an answer to it.)

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 Post subject: Re: Can Commander have a Happily Ever After?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-19 11:29 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Now, it's similar to Coalition Victory which is banned -- but is it similar enough to also be banned?


No.

It's a crappier Felidar Sovereign that requires a ton of hoops to jump through.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Commander have a Happily Ever After?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-19 11:44 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
^^^ he's not wrong

Having said that, if it triggers, destroying it (or the 5C creature) won't stop the controller from winning because it will still satisfy the "or graveyard" bit. You'll have to exile something to stop the win, if the trigger is already on the stack.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Commander have a Happily Ever After?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-19 11:51 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
papa_funk wrote:
Carthain wrote:
Now, it's similar to Coalition Victory which is banned -- but is it similar enough to also be banned?


No.

It's a crappier Felidar Sovereign that requires a ton of hoops to jump through.

I was going to post hours ago, but it would have just been a long-winded way of saying this.

The other thing I will mention that makes this card absolutely nothing like Coalition Victory is its game impact. CV either ends the game on the spot or does literally nothing, no room in between. This card both impacts the board state and is a repeating upkeep trigger. Even ignoring everything everyone else has said, those two facts alone make it as incomparable to Coalition Victory as Weathered Wayfarer is to Primeval Titan.

That all being said, I'm no fan of the card. I've gone on and on about why I think group hug cards are eh at best, and while it's certainly more interesting than a Felidar or LabMan win, I tend to find most alt win cards pretty boring.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Commander have a Happily Ever After?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-22 7:01 am 

Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
In the spirit of contradicting Kong, I actually like the alt-wins, and I try to win at least once with all of them. (Eventually I'm going to win with Liliana's Contract and Tomb of Urami, and it's going to be delicious.)

Happily Ever After though? I'm not even gonna try; it's too hard.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Commander have a Happily Ever After?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-22 9:53 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Kemev wrote:
In the spirit of contradicting Kong, I actually like the alt-wins, and I try to win at least once with all of them. (Eventually I'm going to win with Liliana's Contract and Tomb of Urami, and it's going to be delicious.)

Happily Ever After though? I'm not even gonna try; it's too hard.


I think of it kinda like an achievement, I have never lost to Win Cat, and will sometimes make a worse play to prevent from losing to these types of things.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Commander have a Happily Ever After?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-22 10:23 am 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
Kemev wrote:
In the spirit of contradicting Kong, I actually like the alt-wins, and I try to win at least once with all of them. (Eventually I'm going to win with Liliana's Contract and Tomb of Urami, and it's going to be delicious.)

Happily Ever After though? I'm not even gonna try; it's too hard.


Tomb of Urami? thats not really an alt win, or did i miss something


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 Post subject: Re: Can Commander have a Happily Ever After?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-22 10:26 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I think Kemev means winning with Lili's Contract, with Urami being one of the four demons. Which seems unnecessarily dangerous, but if you wanna do it that way, go right ahead :)

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The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: Can Commander have a Happily Ever After?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-22 1:43 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Oddly enough, the one deck I have that actually is built around an alt-win does include Tomb... and I got a nice shiny foil one that is the coolest thing to have ever existed.

Alt-win cards I actually do run and/or like:
Barren Glory: It's secretly a silver-bordered card, and also the win con in the aforementioned deck that includes Tomb.
Hellkite Tyrant: It's a dragon that steals artifacts.
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries: All the fun of LabMan with only 10% of the boringness!
Liliana's Contract: 4 life and 5 mana for 4 cards is not bad. I'll also never run it in a deck unless said deck includes exactly four demons.
Mayael's Aria: Don't have a deck where it's good, but if I did it'd be in.
Mechanized Production: Run it in Thada Adel, pretty much only ever target Sol Ring with it.
Revel in Riches: I don't really see it as truly an alt-win card. It feels more like a rattlesnake against wrath effects/aristocrat shenanigans, while also being a decent ramp engine. It also gives me an excuse to quip "Arrghh, more o' me booty!" or some other piratespeak over and over in game.

So, in light of actually looking at the situation, I'll retract and amend my original statement. I despise alt-win cards like LabMan, Win Cat, and Darksteel Reactor that just sit there in wait for you to accomplish some arbitrary thing. The exception is Barren Glory, just because the deck I built to set it up is just a huge pile of stupid jank and it's a functional reprint of an the iconic The Cheese Stands Alone. Alt-win cards that actually affect the board state and have other interesting effects; those I'm cool with.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Commander have a Happily Ever After?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-22 1:48 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
Viperion wrote:
I think Kemev means winning with Lili's Contract, with Urami being one of the four demons. Which seems unnecessarily dangerous, but if you wanna do it that way, go right ahead :)


OHhhh, i get it. lol. i feel dense as hell now


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 Post subject: Re: Can Commander have a Happily Ever After?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-23 6:12 am 

Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I lost to a RW Barren Glory deck... I don't remember exactly how it worked, but the winning play was an EoT sac Academy Rector and lands to suspended Greater Gargadon, then win during upkeep.

Shoe wrote:
Viperion wrote:
I think Kemev means winning with Lili's Contract, with Urami being one of the four demons. Which seems unnecessarily dangerous, but if you wanna do it that way, go right ahead :)


OHhhh, i get it. lol. i feel dense as hell now


Hah, imagine how it'll feel to lose to it. Muahahahaha

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