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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-09 6:46 am 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
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actually, the banned list rule already covers this:

Quote:
These cards should not be played without prior agreement from the other players in the game


emphasis mine


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-09 6:48 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
So if you do use wishes (for those of you who do use them), which wish cards do you use? What do you run in your sideboard? How big is your sideboard?


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-09 8:31 am 
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cryogen wrote:
So if you do use wishes (for those of you who do use them), which wish cards do you use? What do you run in your sideboard? How big is your sideboard?


i dont use wishes in commander, but in normal 60 card magic ive done glittering wish for coalition victory in Tribal wars troll decks (#trollalitionvictory). I've WANTED TO USE Spawnsire of Ulamog for s long time, and i had a Research // development deck where i replicated it infinite times with djinn iluminatus and won with battle of wits.

I also dont usualy have a sideboard. For the R&D deck i literally used cards from my trade binder. Otherwise, my cards are all alphabetized and if i'm at home i just run upstairs and grab something. "Wishboards" ruin it for me. i love possibility.

this, mind you, comes from an extremely casual player who often chooses jank over goodstuff in the spirit of hillariousness


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-09 8:59 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
There are a few challenges with wishes that haven't been resolved.

The wishing for a card outside colour identity or banned is one, and there are few elegant solutions to that. The RC and CAG would have to decide to either add some rules text or be willing to accept that problem to allow wish cards.

Another is the fact that you are functionally adding hundreds of cards to your deck. Tutors are considered by many to be unhealthy for the format. Wishes are the ultimate tutors allowing you to bring silver bullets ready to deal with any problem. Is this what we want for our format? The 100 card limit is meant to be a challenge, you are supposed to have to make choices about what to cut and you are supposed to be unable to answer everything. Wishes significantly circumvent that.

Many players will use them to create cool memorable moments, but I believe many more will use them to have the right answer every time. In mid level casual games there is no downside to wishes, the format isn't fast enough to punish their slow nature, so there is no reason not to run every one you possibly can. Why wouldn't every green deck run living wish to grab a bojuka bog or maze of ith or strip mine when they need it. Why wouldn't every blue deck play cunning wish, and take a counter spell, or just grab FoF or blue sun's zenith when they need to refill?

Wishes, functioning "the way they were intended" are wild cards, they are a blank slate for you to do anything you want. Commander is a format where restrictions and creativity are key, colour identify, commander selection, singleton, 100 cards, all restrictions to impose limits on what any one deck can do. I don't think these two ideas work together.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-09 9:39 am 
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specter404 wrote:
There are a few challenges with wishes that haven't been resolved.

The wishing for a card outside colour identity or banned is one, and there are few elegant solutions to that. The RC and CAG would have to decide to either add some rules text or be willing to accept that problem to allow wish cards.


Outside color identity, i admit is a bit of an issue, if you read the comment I posted above, the banned list entry already handles banned cards as it prevents "playing with" these cards, not the inclusion of them in a deck. After the rule for not being allowed to make colored mana outside your color identety left the format, I feel like wishes are not really that far off. Your DECK does not contain cards outside the color identity. I'm ok with this since it allows people to play approximately 20 cool cards in a way that no other format REALLY allows to function to the fullest.

Quote:
Another is the fact that you are functionally adding hundreds of cards to your deck. Tutors are considered by many to be unhealthy for the format. Wishes are the ultimate tutors allowing you to bring silver bullets ready to deal with any problem. Is this what we want for our format? The 100 card limit is meant to be a challenge, you are supposed to have to make choices about what to cut and you are supposed to be unable to answer everything. Wishes significantly circumvent that.


This one is a little bit of a falsehood, you aren't adding hundreds of cards to your deck, just hundreds of possibilities. Like the Praetor's Grasp example above, Grasp adds the possibilites to play cards that are off color from all of your opponent's decks. Like a lot of other cards, yeah, tutoring CAN be used to make games boring and consistant, but I doubt wishes will be used that way when they are far less efficient than tutors. Also, tutors aren't banned, so if we are keeping tutors around why not keep wishes too. Finally, tutors REDUCE variance by finding cards you already play over and over, wishes INCREASE variance by allowing a bunch of other cool wacky cards to come into the game OR even niche answer cards that collect a ton of dust to see the light of day. Both positive things if you ask me.

Quote:
Many players will use them to create cool memorable moments, but I believe many more will use them to have the right answer every time. In mid level casual games there is no downside to wishes, the format isn't fast enough to punish their slow nature, so there is no reason not to run every one you possibly can. Why wouldn't every green deck run living wish to grab a bojuka bog or maze of ith or strip mine when they need it. Why wouldn't every blue deck play cunning wish, and take a counter spell, or just grab FoF or blue sun's zenith when they need to refill?


Wishing for a maze of ith or strip mine is different from tutoring for them how exactly? green already does this. I addressed off color a bit above, but I'll briefly mention here: Green has always been able to create mana and get lands that aren't in it's color. So a bojuka bog isn't a problem for me. I doubt people are going to be wasting wishes on stuff like that 100% of the time. there are plenty of options in the original color to do most things. I guess the most likely example is white decks fetching card draw engines that don't suck with Glittering Wish?

Quote:
Wishes, functioning "the way they were intended" are wild cards, they are a blank slate for you to do anything you want. Commander is a format where restrictions and creativity are key, colour identify, commander selection, singleton, 100 cards, all restrictions to impose limits on what any one deck can do. I don't think these two ideas work together.


I agree that restrictions and creativity are a cornerstone of commander, casting a wish is the ultimate in creativity, you get to build part of your play experience ON THE FLY! This is a super cool thing SOMETIMES, but I don't think everyone is going to just load up on wishes. Nothing has ever made so big a splash in commander that it became ubiquitous. Even powerful broken commanders and staples are often snubbed for more fun and wild card choices. Rule 1 polices the wishes fine IMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-09 10:11 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I've been thinking on this for a bit. From feedback I've received as well as just listening to other people, one of the biggest drawbacks is the time required to resolve a wish when you're looking through a collection. To this end, I think the elegant solution would be to create a fixed sideboard size and make it conform to color identity and one-of rule (meaning you can't run a second copy of Counterspell).

The obvious benefit to doing this would be to make the rules more closely work they way they do in other formats, which we have already seen in the past. Also, in the past the execution was not handled properly since they were not legal but sort of legal if your group wanted to use them, which led to the confusion we have now to some extent.

However, I think the practical application of a sideboard would be problematic. For every "I would just fill it with jank cards" you also have the "I'd fill it with Boil effects or Spawnsire (which could just as easily be shortened to 'an infinite combo')" players. And even though I've never really had a desire to run a wish, it didn't take me very long to determine what I would use it for: removal, counters, draw spells, fatties, and maybe a wincon that were cards 101-116 when building the deck in the first place. After all, even when running the best of those cards, there are usually left overs that are still worth of being in the 99, why not put them in the SB? And while the contents of each SB would probably change with decks, the overall design would remain constant.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-09 10:35 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
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Shoe wrote:
This one is a little bit of a falsehood, you aren't adding hundreds of cards to your deck, just hundreds of possibilities.
That's a distinction of little substance. Unless you routinely draw your whole deck any card you add to your deck isn't anything more than a possibility. So adding hundreds of more possibilities has little distinction from adding hundreds of more cards.

Shoe wrote:
Like the Praetor's Grasp example above, Grasp adds the possibilites to play cards that are off color from all of your opponent's decks.
Sure, but so does Control Magic or Bribery -- the difference is you don't get to pick and choose which ones are added with those, you rely upon what your opponents bring to the matchup. Wishes are all in your jurisdiction so that ends up being more potentially problematic than Grasp or Bribery.

Shoe wrote:
Like a lot of other cards, yeah, tutoring CAN be used to make games boring and consistant, but I doubt wishes will be used that way when they are far less efficient than tutors.
Less efficient, but with allowing them to get anything from your collection they end up being much more versatile than a tutor.

Shoe wrote:
Also, tutors aren't banned, so if we are keeping tutors around why not keep wishes too.
That's a false equivalency. When we talk about changing the ban list, we require those who want change to prove that the change is beneficial to the format. In this case, wishes are effectively banned, so "why not keep wishes too" is false, as we're not talking about keeping them, but about allowing their functionality into the format.

Shoe wrote:
Finally, tutors REDUCE variance by finding cards you already play over and over, wishes INCREASE variance
That's one theory. You can infer from that comment that I don't agree.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-09 10:51 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
The problem that the pro-wish side of the fence are either downplaying or outright ignoring is the ease with which specific and/or narrow cards are all of a sudden fetchable with wishes. Additionally, how fast the wish/sideboard will be adopted in mass because of the perceived/actual advantaged gained from using it.

Want to hate on Blue decks "occasionally" when the need arises but don't want to dedicate a slot to something like Choke or Red Elemental Blast because you can't guarantee it won't be a dead card, play group to play group? Just wish for it...

If a concession were to be made for wishboards, it's spitting distance from a sideboard option, IMO. It's basically the same thing, in that it's a subset of cards outside the game that are intended for use under specific circumstances. The format has persisted and thrived without either option and will honestly continue to do so.

That's not even addressing the matter of size of wish/sideboards, which have the same problematic nature in that, if you have Choke available, you're likely to board that in against a table full of blue decks because it's advantageous to do so. The number is an arbitrary one... why limit the size of it? To make it more in line with what a sideboard is for other formats? To reduce the amount of time people have going through this additional pile of cards? Is it limited to a set size 'because reasons'? Does each wish card get it's own number of dedicated cards to pull from? If not, how do you justify giving more "modes/options" to players running fewer wishes and less options for someone who wants to run a janky "wish tribal" deck? Any limitations on the wish cards, if allowed to run as designed, would be arbitrary, but no one is going to want to sit while someone rifles through a binder for that one card that will help them in that specific situation... and that is an eventuality, not just a possibility.

There's more time added pre/post game with subbing and replacing cards. Plenty of people will be saying "Oh crap, this is one of my wish/sideboard cards that I forgot to swap out... mind if I switch it?" This is a tactic that can be abused and can invite underhanded play...Are you willing to deal with that? Because personally I'm not, and I don't think a majority of people will want to deal with that either. People who don't have regular play groups are going to have issues trusting other people they're playing with when this occurs.

That the RC doesn't just say that they're banned, is admittedly a snag, because that's where this all is coming from. If it were banned outright, it would fall under the "playgroup/house rules" side of the ruling. As is, it's just "They don't function" to which the response of some is "Well, why not?"

Simply put, the reasons for why they won't be allowed to function have been mentioned numerous times across these forums and others, and have been said in a great many ways over the years.
* There are far too many possibilities for what could be allowed, and deciding on one thing is going to please some people and not be enough for others.
* There is no clean way to do it and such a format specific errata will create an uproar among the community for other cards like Serra Ascendant, which weren't designed for this format and then things get messy. Just house rule it.
* It's one step closer to a sideboard, which should never be a default. That's what house rules are for.
* Every time someone is in the pro-wish camp, it's easy to mark it as "your normal group/LGS told you no, and you couldn't accept it, so you're trying to get someone with the weight to make a format-wide change to validate your belief and force that possibility of play on everyone." This is because the house rule exists for a reason. Convince your group to give it a shot on your own opinions and see how it goes. Regardless of the outcome, you have to accept that it's not a thing everyone is going to be ok with. You will never be able to guarantee that your wish deck will be universally accepted everywhere, and you need to be ok with that.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-09 12:36 pm 
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Carthain wrote:
That's a distinction of little substance. Unless you routinely draw your whole deck any card you add to your deck isn't anything more than a possibility. So adding hundreds of more possibilities has little distinction from adding hundreds of more cards.


is it though? tutors can fetch them, and there are way more tutors than wishes. Every turn you get to draw at least one card, its obviously not a possibility to draw a card from outside the game. Constant opportunities to access the entire contents of your deck arise throughout a game unless you dont play extra draw or tutoring spells. a wish offers more variety (any card from outside the game) but fewer chances to access that more varied pool.

Quote:
Sure, but so does Control Magic or Bribery -- the difference is you don't get to pick and choose which ones are added with those, you rely upon what your opponents bring to the matchup. Wishes are all in your jurisdiction so that ends up being more potentially problematic than Grasp or Bribery.


the assumption you are making here is that, between an average of 3 or more opponents they wont have as good of a toolbox of answers as someone's collection? people tend to run cards that are good at least a few per person even in the jankiest meta.



Quote:

Shoe wrote:
Finally, tutors REDUCE variance by finding cards you already play over and over, wishes INCREASE variance
That's one theory. You can infer from that comment that I don't agree.


are you implying that you think people will wish for the same cards over and over? why would they do that instead of just including the card they constantly wish for maindeck?


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-09 12:47 pm 
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crimsonwings3689 wrote:
The problem that the pro-wish side of the fence are either downplaying or outright ignoring is the ease with which specific and/or narrow cards are all of a sudden fetchable with wishes. Additionally, how fast the wish/sideboard will be adopted in mass because of the perceived/actual advantaged gained from using it.


I'm not ignoring it at all, i think , in most cases, getting more niche cards to see play is better. Id love to dusk off some of my jank and actually get to use it.

Quote:
Want to hate on Blue decks "occasionally" when the need arises but don't want to dedicate a slot to something like Choke or Red Elemental Blast because you can't guarantee it won't be a dead card, play group to play group? Just wish for it...


this is a bad example, imho. if someone runs choke, they arent following rule 1. OR they are playing cEDH, which isnt our target audience.

Quote:
That's not even addressing the matter of size of wish/sideboards, which have the same problematic nature in that, if you have Choke available, you're likely to board that in against a table full of blue decks because it's advantageous to do so. The number is an arbitrary one... why limit the size of it? To make it more in line with what a sideboard is for other formats? To reduce the amount of time people have going through this additional pile of cards? Is it limited to a set size 'because reasons'? Does each wish card get it's own number of dedicated cards to pull from?


to be clear, i am not pro wishboard. either the rules should stay as they are, or we should remove rule13 and just let them work like all other casual magic. If we arent both simplifying the format rules and allowing some casual fun cards most formats dont allow to function as written, i dont see the value.
Quote:
There's more time added pre/post game with subbing and replacing cards. Plenty of people will be saying "Oh crap, this is one of my wish/sideboard cards that I forgot to swap out... mind if I switch it?" This is a tactic that can be abused and can invite underhanded play...Are you willing to deal with that? Because personally I'm not, and I don't think a majority of people will want to deal with that either. People who don't have regular play groups are going to have issues trusting other people they're playing with when this occurs.


again someone breaking rule1. this is not social play if they are cheating,
Quote:

* There are far too many possibilities for what could be allowed, and deciding on one thing is going to please some people and not be enough for others.


there is only one possibility that i would consider aside from the status quo, and that is to simply remove the rule. if that is broken in a way i dont currently see i'd not vote in favor of wishes working.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-09 1:06 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Cryogen already responded to alot of what I would have, I'll add these responses:
Shoe wrote:
I'm ok with this since it allows people to play approximately 20 cool cards in a way that no other format REALLY allows to function to the fullest.

This is probably the strongest argument for allowing wishes and I agree with this part strongly.

Quote:
Finally, tutors REDUCE variance by finding cards you already play over and over, wishes INCREASE variance by allowing a bunch of other cool wacky cards to come into the game OR even niche answer cards that collect a ton of dust to see the light of day. Both positive things if you ask me.

Wishes can add variance to a given game, my suggestion is more that they reduce variance for the format. This idea is best described by my examples in living wish. Right now green decks can tutor land based silver bullets with cards like crop rotation. However there is a cost of having those cards in the deck, bojuka bog is just a bad swamp when you have it in your opening hand, maze of ith could be the difference between a keepable hand, and a hand without enough mana. If you play living wish you get the full benefit of a land tutor without the downside of having a bunch on niche lands in your deck. The same can be said for the rest of the wish cards.

Cool niche cards are only cool because when they work it's unexpected. Wishes make the cool niche cards a regular occurrence.

Quote:
Nothing has ever made so big a splash in commander that it became ubiquitous. Even powerful broken commanders and staples are often snubbed for more fun and wild card choices. Rule 1 polices the wishes fine IMHO.

I suspect those that played in the prime-time and emrakul era's may disagree with you, I wasn't there. Given the old ban criteria list specifically called out ubiquity I'm inclined to be suspicious of this claim.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-09 1:16 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
That's a distinction of little substance. Unless you routinely draw your whole deck any card you add to your deck isn't anything more than a possibility. So adding hundreds of more possibilities has little distinction from adding hundreds of more cards.

Actually there is a significant distinction. Adding hundreds of cards to your deck reduces consistency. So I would say adding hundreds of possibilities is far better than adding hundreds of cards.

[quote'"shoe"]are you implying that you think people will wish for the same cards over and over? why would they do that instead of just including the card they constantly wish for maindeck?[/quote]
I am saying quite directly that people will wish for the same subset of cards again and again in games for which they are relevant. They wont add them to their mainboard because they are situationally relevant instead of universally.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-09 1:38 pm 
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So, to try and summarise a pros and cons list:

PROS:
- Simplifies rules of commander
- Allows for people to play more of their cards
- niche cards are more likely to get some play.

CONS:
- Wishes cause some of the same consistency issues tutors do
- Wishes might be used to find the same niche cards over and over again.


Did i miss any pros or cons that haven't been refuted? I didnt re-read the whole thread, I just summarized where I feel like the argument is at this point. It does seem like a close one to me. Not that I for sure think either side is correct at this point. But it does seem to warrant testing. It really seems to be coming down to "How do players behave with wishes". If wishes play out more like the cons list and peoples concerns, I think we leave the rules as-is. If not, and it really does let some extra goofy or fun stuff happen then it might be worth re-addressing.

I don't currently have a playgroup, but I might get in a few games here on vacation in a few months. If I get a chance to play I'll try some wishes out here and there in my decks.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-09 5:59 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Pretty much, but I think your con list fails to give the context as to why we are worried about wishes.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-09 10:45 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
Blogatog suggests wishes are whimsical. They should be played as written as Shoe stated. Going upstairs and grabbing a card is where the experience is best. They are close to silver border not tutors.


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