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MTG Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander • View topic - Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.

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 Post subject: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-04 8:27 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-13 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Monmouth, OR
I know not everyone plays 1v1 EDH, but there is one general that most people don't even realize -- who is completely broken beyond belief: .

Yes, Clique is easily the best 1v1 general in the format. Not even other proven "douchebag" generals such as Rofellos, Erayo, Azami, Zur, Dagsson, etc. are able to showcase the ability to just consistently win games at such a crushingly high ratio.

Khymera, Peperono, I, and others have been playing Clique for a while in 1v1 play and we lost maybe a total of half a dozen games at the max. That's all three of us TOGETHER, each playing well over 50 games (Khymera himself has logged well over 100).

Clique almost never loses because it virtually never taps out on its main phase. Unlike other blue generals that aren't named Venser or Teferi or Wydwen, Clique has flash, meaning it's able to control the stack better than other blue generals can when they have to play their general at sorcery speed.

"But Surging Chaos, why can't other blue generals just do the same thing Clique does?" Aside from having flash, Clique gives a MUC an actual clock. Venser and Teferi both have no evasion and their bodies are not that great at all unless you give them equipment or other buffs. With flying and three power, Clique ends a game in seven combat steps. Most blue control decks have had the problem of ending a game quick enough once they actually gain control. Clique has no such problem. Venser and Teferi are also unable to **** up your hand or consistently tuck your general.

Because of Clique's clock, it easily reduces the need to counter every single threat your opponent plays. You only need to counter the critical cards that actually keep you from winning or make you lose. There's also no need to counter removal spells as well, unless they're tuck spells since you just replay Clique obviously.

And of course, there's Clique's ability. It is just unbelievably ridiculous when combined with bounce spells. Someone plays their general, you let it resolve. EOT bounce it, followed by Clique, and their general gets sent to the bottom of their library. Most decks flounder when their general when their general gets tucked. Imagine having to play against a relentless MUC deck without your general, and on a seven turn clock.

I have attempted to find any sort of strategy at beating Clique, and have failed every time. Khymera and many others can attest to this. The format in 1v1 is beginning to gravitate towards more and more people playing Clique. Since Clique blows out 98% of generals in EDH, it really won't take long until the format becomes "Play Clique or don't play at all". That's too oppressive, and simply unacceptable.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-04 1:15 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-22 8:04 am
Age: Drake
Signed, obviously. For those who have not played against Clique in 1v1 and think that Surging Chaos is overexaggerating things, he is not. If anything, he is underexaggerating Clique's dominance. A properly built Clique deck consists of nothing but land, counterspells, bounce, and instant-speed draw, and is virtually unbeatable by any deck not entirely focused on beating it (anticlique.dec might be able to boast a 50% win percentage against Clique, but loses horribly to any non-blue deck).

That said, there isn't really a 1v1 banned list recognized on these boards yet (and Clique is bad in multiplayer), so there isn't really a place to ban Clique from.

If I may take the opportunity to plug a 1v1 ban list, over at the other site we've been using the French 1v1 ban list to run a couple of EDH tournaments on MWS. We've taken the liberty of making it our own though, so we can make changes if necessary. After this tournament, I'm pretty certain that Clique will be making its way onto that list (considering that both Surging Chaos and I are advisers for it...).


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-04 1:31 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Well, let me ask you this: What are your choices?

You can stop playing 1v1 EDH and switch to multiplayer, hoping the additional players will balance out the power of any one VC player.
You can agree within your group that VC is over powered and house ban it.
You can push for the addition of VC to the French list.
Or you can continue to play until your meta degens into" play VC or don't play."

You guy are pretty smart. You know that 1v1 EDH is basically Vintage singleton with a slightly different ban list. You had to know that eventually some iteration of a blue based deck would come out on top, be it MUC or Combo.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-11 11:55 am 

Joined: 2010-Feb-11 11:53 am
Age: Egg
Can one of you provide some sort of base Clique list, for testing purposes?


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2010-Feb-16 7:15 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jan-11 12:13 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Emerald's Away
It's sounds pretty brutal so I guess it was luck I beat it. Sol'kanar had enough discard and creature kill to clear a path and Sisay overran it with creatures.

Since it was blue they weren't bad players. BTW, I play RL mostly and not online.

Years of playing means I know how to bait them and trick them. Runed Halo can win the game by itself. They don't get boomerang and/or enchantment destruction in time.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2010-Mar-24 4:22 am 

Joined: 2010-Mar-24 4:19 am
Age: Egg
Opponent should play Scryb Ranger and make aggressive mulligan. so basically even 2 lands and Ranger is good enough to keep :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-14 1:23 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Sep-01 9:25 am
Age: Drake
Location: King of your Creature.
Your joking, right? So in 1v1 your complaining about a 3CMC General with Flash, that doesn't win you the game from being broken? Look at Dralnu before you look at this general in the wrong light, seriously. Even if it gives MUC good tempo and etc and all the arguments to be made for it. Dralnu is a CA engine and can run black(!) as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-15 10:41 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-13 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Monmouth, OR

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-16 8:10 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
First, I agree with Surging 100%.
In 1v1, a properly built Clique deck is going to own pretty much anything else, barring an extremely bad opening by the Clique player and a nutz draw by the opponent (or a deck designed solely to beat a Clique deck).

That being said, the RC has stated that they do not consider banning for 1v1. Ever.
If you want to play 1v1 EDH then la liste Francaise is the way to go, and you should be lobbing the maintainers of that list.

In fact, it's been a while since I've checked, but is that list being kept current?


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-16 11:03 am 
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Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Portland, OR
Could you post your list?


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-17 12:14 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2010-Aug-26 4:59 pm 

Joined: 2010-Aug-26 4:45 pm
Age: Egg
I must say, I find it pretty hilarious that the need to ban Clique is even questionable. Almost nothing on the ban list is even comparable to Clique's brokenness.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-14 7:07 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Clique isn't broken.

Vexing Shusher, cycling out decree of pain/other black cards, other "can't be countered" spellls/permanents, and eventualy, a Clique will draw stuff that can't counter or bounce what you can play.

I've only ever met one Clique deck that can outrun any of my decks, only becouse he has mox, academy, time walk and a few other power(over 9) cards that cost to much.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-19 7:38 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Sep-01 9:25 am
Age: Drake
Location: King of your Creature.
I'm sorry to say, but any argument that you can come up with to make it seem like Vedlion Clique is more broken than Dralnu is invalid for a couple of reasons. One, is that I can run the same idenical deck list a Vedlilion Deck can run because Dralnu is blue. And the fact that I get to run Demonic Tutor, which in any given case will give me an advantage if it resolves running the same list against you, would give me an upper hand. Another is Yawgmoth's Will, or any broken Black Spell that fits the criteria of game winner in EDH. Black is too strong of a color to not take top seat in any format where it's most powerful spells are legal. Ask anyone who plays with tutors or broke spells, they'll most likely be playing black.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2010-Sep-19 10:37 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-15 2:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Denver, CO


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